JK Rowling on Keir Starmer

Exactly, Velvet, they didn't. We need to frame it like that to our elected representatives and the HoL.

The equality act sets out that we are allowed single sex prevision where there is a need, such as religions where sexes can not mix, shelters for those with trauma, prisons etc where there is ample evidence that a unisex prevision would increase risk of attack.

the human rights act sets out that people can not be discriminated against due to their sex, religion, opinions etc.

unisex toilets and changing rooms are already known to be dangerous accounting for over 70% of sexual assaults in such areas.

no one asked me to vote on if I wanted female only or indeed male only spaces abolished. where is the democracy?

Inflated, not inflating!

Trans people do too, but that's for their own vastly inflating funding groups to sort out. They need to find an alternative solution. The idea of them using the spaces of the opposite sex where privacy and dignity is important doesn't work for women and girls.

Let's not quibble who deserves most to have privacy and dignity in day to day life. All women and girls do.

They care more about for example, rapists getting put into women's prisons than the women who are for example, in jail due to not paying their BBC licence fee.

And the BBC who put them there crow on about how we should all pretend we cannot see the penis in the room. They don't give a shiny shit about the vulnerable vaginas in the room.

It is shameful that the punishment for not paying a BBC licence fee is to be locked up with violent rapists. All cheered on by the BBC.

What about women who have not had a history of abuse? Should we put them in the front line? I say no woman should have to be in this position, regardless of her history or religion.

I agree.

If a transwoman wants to share your space so what? Of course there is a tiny chance she could have a sinister motive but there is a far higher chance that she just wants to live her life the best way she can and may need some legal protection to do that.

No thanks. I don't want male people in female only spaces. It's that simple. Why do you feel my feelings are less valid than theirs?

[quote Terfydactyl]But they should be up in arms at this. Transmen were born female and so have first hand experience of women's oppression, so they should be supporting us women instead of being silent and not standing with us

There are a few that do speak up but amazingly they are ignored almost as if they are in fact women and can safely be ignored.

Dunno how that works

“If a transwoman wants to share your space so what? Of course there is a tiny chance she could have a sinister motive but there is a far higher chance that she just wants to live her life the best way she can and may need some legal protection to do that.”

Alongside the reams of evidence that women are at risk in mixed-sex spaces, there is very little evidence that transwomen are at risk in male spaces.

And if TW at the moment don't feel comfortable using men's spaces, isn't that really where the empathy and kindness should be coming from? From men, so that all gender non-conforming males feel welcome and included?

@BiggerBoat1 My last post on this, but there is so much more to say. Already on this site I've seen women say they are restricting their fluids during the work day so they won't have to use the unisex facilities at work. Risking a UTI!

Already on site, and elsewhere, women are saying they are going out in public less, to prevent needing to use public loos that are unisex.

Risking Urinary Tract Infections from suppressing fluids, to restricting themselves from participating in society - and this is only anglosaxon non-Muslim women. This is having a catastrophic effect on women's participation in society, because women don't feel safe that our safeguards are being torn down and our facilities removed. All because people like yourself want to appease the privileged men, who RETAIN their PENIS AND TESTICLES. All because those like yourself want to be seen to be virtuous and nice and being kind. All the while, you are helping erase women's participation in society. Please, please, please read more threads in this Women's Rights section here, @BigggerBoat1 , and see the full situation and the implications of what you are advocating, for women. It is truly catastrophic. Women now have LESS rights than we did in the 1950s.

She's awful and needs to shut up. Plenty of people on here lapping up her bullshit though I see!

well, @BiggerBoat1 at least you came back. And then did the "no haven't read the article..."
Not adding to any discussion.

I don't often comment on things like this because there is so little room for nuance. If someone has taken the time to live as a woman (i'm not sure how you prove that beyond consistently reiterating she/her, adopting a "feminine" name, etc - but there is a process and it does take time) for the required 2 years, and obtains a GRC and lives "as a woman" (whatever that is - i'm not being awkward, i find it impossible to define. I'm AFAB and i identify as a woman, but i am regularly accused of being a Tomboy because i like beer, football, pizza, shooting and powertools but never get called girly because i like rom-coms, high-heels, knitting and cooking)

In short, i am ok with the regulations as they stand and if i have shared spaces with transwomen i personally haven't noticed (not that i stare) and it hasn't adversely impacted my life in any way. I rather suspect that a lot of transwomen are ok with it too (I only know one well, and she's been trans as long as I've known her which is about 25 years)

And i also think that there are very good and valid arguments for sex segregated spaces which i don't need to repeat (except for one woman i once met at my gym who was trying to get our female only entrance reinstated so that she didn't have to get close to strange men for religious reasons. It had been closed due to covid and I'm not sure what the status is now)

Where things get sketchy is the fact that someone can now identify as a man or woman but don't have to take any apparent steps to live the life. So a transwoman can wear men's clothes, have a full beard etc etc but now the difference is, if you encounter this transwoman in a hitherto sex segregated space, you can't say "are you sure you're in the right place?" (and in some cases then be accused of literal violence). There are obviously other ways the new way of things can and will be confusing, but thre is zero discussion of it that i can see.

Why can't we have sex-segregated spaces and gender segregated spaces? After all some of the most marginalised people in the world are women of colour and religion (I am thinking particuly of some types of Judaism and Islam - i am not an expert) Why do they no longer have the option to leave the house if their male relatives think they might encounter a man? I thought we wanted to support our sisters in this? And if TWAW then surely they want to support our sisters too?

There is too much nuance that just gets ignored. And we so rarely get on the topic of transmen.

@BiggerBoat1 take ten minutes and read the essay someone has helpfully posted below. If you are going to criticism someone for what they have written, it's probably a good idea to read it first.

Look, here's the TL;DR for those who can't read a short and well-written piece before blundering in.

It's not that transwomen are all predators. It's that opening women's spaces to any male person who just says he identifies as female, no further process required, is wide open to abuse by predatory men. It's happened already and judging by the daily death and rape threats, and hijacking of a thread about children's art work with obscene images, it will happen again.

You are not being virtuous or liberal by encouraging this. Think about reality, not your self image.

@BiggerBoat1 Can I ask, in a 'woke' vs 'woke' competition, who has right of way, in your opinion?
The hijabi Muslim who wants to relax in a woman's spa or change room or facility, and remove hijab in the presence of women, assured that she is in a woman's only space, OR, the male who wants to get his dick and balls out in in a woman's spa or change room or facility?

Who has right of way? Who are you going to support? The Muslim woman (who is already restricted in how much she can participate in western society and this will see her confined to her house more), or the privileged male person with a penis or testicles. You have to make the call. You can only choose one:
so which will it be? Will you put the rights of MEN above the dignity, safety, and mental, psychological and emotional wellbeing of women?

Who do you choose in this woke vs woke situation? Vulnerable women? Or the privileged male bodies?

^Muslim women have a right to be in a spa without seeing male genitals. This is common sense.

Domestic violence and rape survivors have a right to be in a spa without seeing male genitals. This is common sense.^

If a transwoman wants to share your space so what? Of course there is a tiny chance she could have a sinister motive but there is a far higher chance that she just wants to live her life the best way she can and may need some legal protection to do that.

How many women are acceptable collateral?

There are women being raped in the female prison estate by convicted sexual offenders who identify as women.

There are women having to self exclude from rape crisis services because organisations are refusing to provide single sex services, despite being allowed to due to the exemptions in the Equality Act 2010.

Female athletes are being cheated in sporting competitions by having to compete with males and are being silenced by their sporting authorities when they raise concerns.

I could go on and on. There are so many examples.

How many women are acceptable collateral?

And as we keep saying, self id means that any man, however they identify, can declare themselves a woman (no change needed to appearance or presentation) and access single sex spaces. If a woman raises concerns, she is branded a transphobe and subject to the silencing effect.

You really can't see how this could be abused by predators?

If a transwoman wants to share your space so what? Of course there is a tiny chance she could have a sinister motive but there is a far higher chance that she just wants to live her life the best way she can and may need some legal protection to do that

This used to be the way it went, tw would use our toilets etc and for quite some time that was tolerable to women who used to feel sorry for them.
Then self Id was implemented, no talking, no debate, no asking if that was ok, nothing. It simply was, and then women started to think about the implications of self id and how any man could simply say "I am a woman " and we women could do nothing about that.
We saw the downfalls to self id, we also got quite upset that no one thought they needed to ask us what we thought.

Then of course some women will say who cares, it doesn't matter to me, completely forgetting the other women who it really does matter to. Those who if self Id is accepted everywhere and anywhere will no longer be able to use formerly women only spaces.

That's quite a lot of women to ignore and those women including me are rightly angry that we were ignored and we now cannot take a fuller part in life.

“If a transwoman wants to share your space so what? Of course there is a tiny chance she could have a sinister motive but there is a far higher chance that she just wants to live her life the best way she can and may need some legal protection to do that.”

Male sex offenders are identifying as women and being put in women’s prisons.

Yes, 'not all men' BiggerBoat1, but it is almost always men, regardless of how they choose to 'identify'. So why tell us we must have our spaces made unsafe because some males demand validation for their identities?
All the reasons we segregate by sex where women and children are at their most vulnerable haven't magically disappeared because some males claim to be women.

The fact is it is men who are actively campaigning to remove female legal protections and child safeguarding and if that doesn't set off some fucking alarm bells then you really must be incredibly naive.

@BiggerBoat1 Already we are seeing women being assaulted in their own restrooms and facilities. Transwomen sexually offend at the same rate as other men. One case, is one case too many, and we are already seeing women being assaulted in their own restrooms and facilities.

Here is the evidence:
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life

metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/amp/

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/seven-sex-attacks-in-womens-jails-by-transgender-convicts-cx9m8zqpg?fbclid=IwAR1JhugsOSdg58PzKpMAfvzqZVXxb7mRWs93qWqQyBA6vupiwnk1U_BJOOc

www.fox46.com/news/transgender-woman-convicted-of-sexually-assaulting-10-year-old-girl-in-bathroom/

www.scotsman.com/regions/edinburgh-fife-and-lothians/female-spaces-need-better-protection-after-trans-woman-sex-assault-girl-say-campaigners-140883?fbclid=IwAR2iMILdrlxCbawettem8KbyhpnRUfjpQIx8ZhPUiEeFGXCia1_soi-5JZI

www.foxnews.com/us/parents-speak-out-at-loudoun-county-school-board-meeting

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/

transcrimeuk.com/

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10472547/Trans-rapist-25-groomed-13-year-old-girl-jailed-100-months.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10596441/Woman-83-parole-killing-two-arrested-charged-murder-sfa.html

www.scotsman.com/regions/edinburgh-fife-and-lothians/female-spaces-need-better-protection-after-trans-woman-sex-assault-girl-say-campaigners-140883

And what about the woman that was recently on this site who was the subject of this link? www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10249633/Rape-victim-forced-quit-therapy-sessions-feels-threatened-6ft-trans-woman.html She was forced out of a RAPE SURVIVOR group because a man, dressed as a man 'claimed' he was a woman, sat in the group and was GRINNING at women speaking of their trauma, he was clearly a sociopath getting off on it. That is what happens when you open the floodgates to #bekind to the menz feelings, at the expense of actual women. This woman was expelled from the centre. There was already a specific trans group designed for the man in question. But he wanted to invade the womans space. And women rape survivors have nowhere to go now.

Want more evidence of how having 'empathy' for the 'menz feelings' at the expense of women's physical reality is impacting women? How about the LA spa incident #WiSpa where a naked male-bodied person with a semi erection was walking about amongst women and children, in a woman's spa? Later emerged that they are on the sex offenders register. But that was how EASY it was for them to gain access to women's spaces.

This, is what happens when you remove safeguarding and let any MALE in just on their 'say so' that they 'identify' as a woman. This has been a disaster. Women are being raped by men in women's prisons. They are being sexually assaulted by men in women's restrooms and changerooms. They are losing spots to men in their sports. This is what 'bekind' and 'empathy' to men by ZERO empathy to women leads us to. Men can infiltrate women's spaces to perve on us and assault us, and as you can see from the evidence in the links I posted, it is far, far, far more than 'just one' person. One, is one case too many.

It is WHY our foresisters fought for women's safe spaces. Please don't be brainwashed by those who seek to tear down all the safety, safeguards and protections we have, just because you want to be seen to be 'empathetic' towards male-bodied people. Those safeguards were put in place for a reason. There is no difference between a male who says he is a male, and a male who says he is a woman. BOTH cases have a penis and testicles, testosterone and the ability to overpower a woman.

Yes Biggerboat1, you are naive, uninformed and whatever, that's why you're getting rigorous push back. That's what mumsnetters do.

i.e., If someone is of the mindset of we must be kind, trying to support the underdog, the vulnerable, the person they think is discriminated against and hard done by ,then at least providing examples of actual women who are in that position might make them think further

but I think that sometimes it is easier for people who have not considered the implications of males in female spaces to agree that it is unfair to those with particular vulnerabilities, before they are able to see that it is unfair to all women, because it's perhaps more obvious