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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JK Rowling on Keir Starmer

315 replies

NancyDrawed · 12/03/2022 14:20

In the Daily Mail

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10605735/JK-Rowling-slams-Keir-Starmer-Labour-leader-says-trans-women-women.html

'This hill we're all supposed to be dying on is mighty crowded, isn't it? And we all seem very lively, too...'

Love her!

OP posts:
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6
TheMarzipanDildo · 14/03/2022 18:19

spacehardware Blush

TheMarzipanDildo · 14/03/2022 18:18

Oh shit sorry I clearly read that wrong

TheMarzipanDildo · 14/03/2022 18:18

“Which makes the insistence of TRAs that gender critical feminists are all a bunch of white middle class Karens all the more absurd“

‘Karen’ is a sexist, ageist term. And you can piss right off with the “you’re all white and middle class” bullshit, it just suggests that other ethnicities and working class women (such as myself) are invisible to you, because there are plenty of them on the GC side.

FrancescaContini · 14/03/2022 17:45

@spacehardware

"The voices of disabled women, Muslim women & Jewish women are completely ignored by the political parties. So much for inclusion"

Which makes the insistence of TRAs that gender critical feminists are all a bunch of white middle class Karens all the more absurd

Projection
spacehardware · 14/03/2022 17:34

"The voices of disabled women, Muslim women & Jewish women are completely ignored by the political parties. So much for inclusion"

Which makes the insistence of TRAs that gender critical feminists are all a bunch of white middle class Karens all the more absurd

FrancescaContini · 14/03/2022 17:14

@Rhannion

The voices of disabled women, Muslim women & Jewish women are completely ignored by the political parties. So much for inclusion, Keir is a spineless bastard, among other spineless bastards, including some women. Thank goodness for Rosie Duffield, Jo Cherry & the Baroness.
Hear hear. I ❤️ all those women you name.
Rhannion · 14/03/2022 17:08

The voices of disabled women, Muslim women & Jewish women are completely ignored by the political parties. So much for inclusion, Keir is a spineless bastard, among other spineless bastards, including some women. Thank goodness for Rosie Duffield, Jo Cherry & the Baroness.

WellThatsMeScrewed · 14/03/2022 17:05

@NitroNine great post

Igneococcus · 14/03/2022 16:34

There are now 1.4K comments on today's article. It's clearly hitting a nerve.

itsnotdeep · 14/03/2022 14:42

Really good post @NitroNine

And of course it's not just about female spaces. I thought Sarah Ditum said it really well in her article on Saturday

"Because, despite Cooper’s dismissive attitude, the definition of “woman” does matter. It matters for single-sex spaces. It matters for sport. It matters for the language we use to talk about female health. It matters for measuring the income gap, and for monitoring who’s doing more than their fair share of unpaid work in the home. It matters for understanding violence against women. It matters because the law depends on language, and people who pretend to strategic idiocy about the natural and ordinary meanings of words really have no business being lawmakers."

There's a lot of the feminist = transphobic posts on twitter today which just really get on my tits.

Is Keir persuadable? What does he need to hear or think to decide that he's going to support women and just be brave and face his own party?

BraveBananaBadge · 14/03/2022 13:10

Thanks for your last post, Nitro.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/03/2022 10:13

Anyway, as for JKR all I see is a lot of angry men furious that a woman - a woman - has achieved success and fame and, yes, universal respect. How dare she take what their many privilege entitles them to?

Yes, I think this is a factor in it. Many men don't perceive their own unconscious misogyny.

DrSbaitso · 14/03/2022 10:09

I have never yet met a male-identified man who was offended by single sex spaces because he thought they meant everyone thinks he, himself, is a sex offender.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 14/03/2022 10:08

@NitroNine Flowers What a good post. I've just seen a tweet about luxury beliefs. This is undoubtedly one. Those keenest on it are the ones who aren't really affected.

NitroNine · 14/03/2022 10:03

@JustAnotherPoster00

So very wealthy woman refuses to vote Labour, who would tax more of her wealth, because 'trans' whilst the Tory parties policies kill disabled and vulnerable woman through the removal of services and destitution due to the inadequate benefits system, does the holy one suggest who to vote for or is just a case of fuck the poor and lets get on with this right wing moral panic?

Solidarity sisters [eye roll]

It’s not “because trans” it’s “because Labour’s position = trampling all over women - including the vulnerable ones you’ve just chosen to highlight”.

I’m one of the disabled women who didn’t get the £20 benefit uplift during Covid because it was not granted to those of us on legacy benefits. (Despite, of course, disabled people paying an average of £583 a month crip!tax - ie the additional costs incurred due to their disability/disabilities.)

I’m one of the CEV group who got an email towards the end of last year basically saying “we’re ending all shielding support, but you probably ought to keep doing all the stuff as far as possible - I mean, you’ll look mad & we’re focused on ‘back to normal’ meaning ‘ignore it & it will go away’, but you’re still at risk (not that we’re mentioning that to anyone else)” - followed by another, just before Christmas, to say I’m in the lucky 1.5 million who get to try the new drugs if I catch Covid. So atm, in disability activism circles, a special sort of “Shat Upon By Tories” (& that’s leaving aside umpteen other far more identifying issues).

J K Rowling represents my interests better than Labour do. ATM only the Tories (in England) are opposed to self-ID, but they are indeed a disaster for disabled people. (Immediate response to that report was essentially “you are fibbers & we are totes awesomes”; we are now at be grateful damn you while Chloe Smith looks for suitably tall dark winding bannister-free staircases & canisters of cockroaches are stockpiled…)

I wouldn’t feel safe sharing a bay with any male person, however they choose to identify, when in hospital. It is bad enough having other women hear - because they inevitably do, unless you’re in a side room - every last detail of your body’s [mal]functions. I have had the experience of another patient’s male relative staying in the Bay (he was not meant to be there, staff were not aware & patient was not - unlike me, as it happens - desperately unwell). I’m sure he was a perfectly nice man with no thought other than for his female relative (& perhaps his own comfort). Unfortunately, my lizard brain was not on board with this analysis. The stress did bring my blood pressure up towards normal, which was much-needed - but I literally couldn’t speak with terror. My nurse was in to me multiple times for obs & to switch over IV bags, I didn’t need to call them even, but I couldn’t speak. The idea is bad enough in the daytime, from a privacy, dignity & neurodivergency point of view. Dismissing my not wanting to be repeatedly retraumatised night after night as part of a “right-wing moral panic” is, to put it politely, grim**. Not that it should have to be about any of the many women & girls who are survivors of male violence. Nor those women whose faith prohibits their sharing such a space with a male individual - again, however they identify. It is enough that women simply want to keep the single sex spaces that are there to protect them; & to take the utilitarian approach, which here, of course, means vigorously enforcing women’s rights to single sex spaces (“here” would of course apply to female sport, girls’ schools - & the charity commission making Girlguiding either revert to being single sex for young members or give up the “single gender” nonsense & be openly mixed sex).

With their attitude towards women’s rights (ie that they can simply be given away) & single sex spaces (ie that single gender is totally the same thing) Labour have managed to alienate lots of women. I haven’t noticed them being concerned about the actual real hate crimes against disabled people nor the fact disabled people are more at risk of domestic abuse. They have endless energy to spare for decrying non-crime hate “incidents” against trans people (mean tweets & stickers stating scientific facts: THE HORROR!) & keep up the “most vulnerable” lie* but other than Vicky Foxcroft (who is, after all, Shadow Minister for Disabled People) Labour don’t seem interested in disabled people at all. Maybe we need to emphasise the [purple] zebra aspect more? Or just give in, dress them up as unicorns & add glitter?

It is dreadfully tedious, incidentally, to have the highly complex, nuanced, reasoned - & for many people, including posters here personal - issues at stake here dismissed as a “moral panic”. “Right-wing” is risible: there are people across the entire political spectrum who are massively concerned about the erosion of women’s rights & the approach being taken by schools, the NHS & youth organisations like Girlguiding to children & young people who identify as trans. To insist otherwise means that you are either ill-informed; genuinely believe that, for example, the Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist Leninist) are right-wing; automatically parrot variations on “TWAW! transphobia! right-wing [ie fascist]! they just want to pee in peace! Be Kind! debunked [youth] suicide statistics!”; think “right-wing” is an inherently bad thing & a dreadful insult, possibly even such that it will cause people to change course (we have posters on here who are Conservatives as well as conservatives & tbh US Dems are about as right-wing as them on lots of things - our centre is very different: not going to go into further international analysis, but posters from elsewhere can advise you I’m sure); or are simply engaging in dishonesty as part of a bad faith argument.

  • if as a class (in the UK) you are more likely to murder than be murdered & 50% of your prison population have committed a sexual offence, it is patently untrue to state you are “the most vulnerable”

yet again: OBVIOUSLY not all trans women are rapists & that should even need saying, but as it’s FWR, it does Confused and crucially, self-ID gives any male person access: open that door & the very worst people WILL walk through it

Chrysanthemum5 · 14/03/2022 09:29

@Terfydactyl

If a transwoman wants to share your space so what? Of course there is a tiny chance she could have a sinister motive but there is a far higher chance that she just wants to live her life the best way she can and may need some legal protection to do that

This used to be the way it went, tw would use our toilets etc and for quite some time that was tolerable to women who used to feel sorry for them.
Then self Id was implemented, no talking, no debate, no asking if that was ok, nothing. It simply was, and then women started to think about the implications of self id and how any man could simply say "I am a woman " and we women could do nothing about that.
We saw the downfalls to self id, we also got quite upset that no one thought they needed to ask us what we thought.

Then of course some women will say who cares, it doesn't matter to me, completely forgetting the other women who it really does matter to. Those who if self Id is accepted everywhere and anywhere will no longer be able to use formerly women only spaces.

That's quite a lot of women to ignore and those women including me are rightly angry that we were ignored and we now cannot take a fuller part in life.

This is exactly what happened. We've always known a small number of transwomen used our spaces - changing rooms and toilets etc but the numbers were tiny. With self-Id that all changes and our previous kindness is being used against us.
bellinisurge · 14/03/2022 09:19

"No" is a complete sentence. "No, thank you" is me Being Kind.

SpiderVersed · 14/03/2022 09:14

If a transwoman wants to share your space so what
Tough.

We all want things we can’t have. A man who wants to be perceived as a woman has no right to the single sex facilities established for women.

It’s not just about safety. It’s about freedom of religion, dignity, privacy.

No one can consent to erase boundaries on behalf of other women. While one woman says no, I say no.

spacehardware · 14/03/2022 08:59

"The safest way is to " broaden the bandwidth " of what is a man"

It's amazing that TRAs cannot be made to see how regressive and bigoted it is to say that if you don't subscribe to a really narrow set of gender stereotypes about your sex, that must mean you should really be the other sex

When did we stop trying to change society and decide it was people who need to be fixed?

Alltheprettyseahorses · 14/03/2022 08:55

What if a transwoman wants to share my space? Well they can't want what they want but the answer is no 🤷‍♀️

Anyway, as for JKR all I see is a lot of angry men furious that a woman - a woman - has achieved success and fame and, yes, universal respect. How dare she take what their many privilege entitles them to?

LittleWhingingWoman · 14/03/2022 08:34

@JustAnotherPoster00

So very wealthy woman refuses to vote Labour, who would tax more of her wealth, because 'trans' whilst the Tory parties policies kill disabled and vulnerable woman through the removal of services and destitution due to the inadequate benefits system, does the holy one suggest who to vote for or is just a case of fuck the poor and lets get on with this right wing moral panic?

Solidarity sisters [eye roll]

Idiotic. You realise she has been a Labour supporter most of her life? And donated to the party?

Moral panic? Being told that men who rape who say they are women are magically women? I'm sorry you are a reality shirker but there it is.

bellinisurge · 14/03/2022 07:31

It's about predatory men abusing society's new religious faith and trust in the religion of gender identity. Question such men and you are a hateful bigot.
Sound familiar?
Do I think all priests, male social workers, male teachers and male sports coaches are sexual predators? No? But I expect basic safeguarding to try and keep the predators out. I don't expect to be vilified for expecting it.
The safest way is to " broaden the bandwidth " of what is a man. Keep out of my safe spaces and my sports.

AKASammyScrounge · 13/03/2022 22:36

One last thing about this remarkable woman. Her books caught on to the extent
that children who had never voluntarily read a book loved Harry Potter and read it. The books are sizeable and yet children took them on. Our school librarian ordered two copies of the first book,then another two. The queue to borrow the book stretched into infinity so more were ordered. When the next book in the series came out she knew to order several copies.
If she never did anything else in her life ,parents and schools would be indebted to her for inspiring children to read

Blossomtoes · 13/03/2022 20:49

Indeed. And I bet the money will be used more sensibly than the millions she pays in tax.

Queenoftheashes · 13/03/2022 20:38

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Hahahaha - JKR literally demoted herself from billionaire status because she donated so much to charity. Unlike many vastly wealthy ppl she resides in & pays UK tax levels

But do carry on trying your desperate smear attempts

It is not womens fault that Labour are such utter fuckwits on this issue

Indeed £160million to charity in 2012
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