Page 9 | The Cass Review- Interim Report

rogdmum · 2022-03-10T09:12:53+00:00

The Cass Review Interim Report has been released. 112 pages long and it’s such a bloody relief to read common sense. [[https://cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/]] There’s so much in it, but emphasis on taking a holistic approach with a great chart on page 57 showing the complex presentations in and complex pathways. And social transitioning has been recognised as an active intervention! “Social transition – this may not be thought of as an intervention or treatment, because it is not something that happens within health services. However, it is important to view it as an active intervention because it may have significant effects on the child or young person in terms of their psychological functioning. There are different views on the benefits versus the harms of early social transition. Whatever position one takes, it is important to acknowledge that it is not a neutral act, and better information is needed about outcomes.” Pages 62/63 So much in it. So much. And there’s more to come as the review continues to work on the issues.

nauticant · 10/03/2022 17:31

The summary from PM by Barnes: "The review has not yet produced any guidance on physical interventions such as puberty blockers and cross sex hormones and it can't do that because of the gaps in the evidence base."

bellinisurge · 10/03/2022 17:28

My Dad who was born pre-Great Depression didn't see gender roles as fixed. He cooked and sewed - taught me. He also taught me to use power tools and change fuses. He would praise my intelligence and determination as much as my appearance. My Mum took a similar approach.
Both of them recognised the biological reality of being a woman and the impact it would have on my life. I was never expected to marry and have kids if I didn't want to/my life didn't work out that way.
So I'm not sure about this nonsense about older people being set in their gender conforming ways comes from.

nauticant · 10/03/2022 17:27

Now being reported on the PM programme on Radio 4. Hannah Barnes reporting which is good.

bellinisurge · 10/03/2022 17:16

Stonewall's response is interesting. Bigging up all the "children need the great care they should expect for any medical situation ". Well, duh. And that there should be better local access to care. Again, duh.

Presume they can see which way the wind is blowing and are trying to stay on the right side of it.

bishophaha · 10/03/2022 17:09

@HPFA

If you are a young trans woman, absent puberty blockers, your voice will drop and you will develop an adam's apple and this will make it very, very difficult for you to 'pass' as what you feel to be your gender in later life.

The whole logic fail in a nutshell. If sex and gender are separate then why would making yourself look like a female sexed person be necessary for you to live as your gender?

A trans woman has always been a woman just as much as I am (I'm a female human) and yet somehow in order to be a "woman" she must make her body resemble mine as much as possible. Surely the implication of that is that I am a more "real" woman than she is?

This is the paradox I can never get my head around.

Me too, and I think JM exposes his views as he clearly believes that "passing" as a woman (which is supposedly a gender identity, not a sex with any physical characteristics) requires not having a deep voice.

He doesn't truly believe this gender stuff, which makes his dishonesty somehow worse.

JellySaurus · 10/03/2022 17:02

@YetAnotherSpartacus

It's really good but my only real concern is that she does buy the genderist line that 'gender' is 'socially constructed' and also somehow 'innate' and that there can be 'incongruence' between expressed and assigned gender' that requires treatment (pp. 27-27). Somehow the emphasis on 'sex' has slipped here.

People are assigned gender in the sense that different stereotypes are expected of them according to their sex. So for genderists there could be an incongruence when a girl (female) is expected to be dainty (socially constructed/assigned gender) but she’s happier striding around with her hand in her pockets (innate/expressed gender). The only treatment that needs is supporting her.

My only real concern with this statement is that she buys the genderist line that 'gender' matters at all.

Artichokeleaves · 10/03/2022 16:43

@AlisonDonut

Sorry I’m being lazy and not feeling well, what is ‘this’ that you cannot wait to be banned on schools? Thank you in advance

I cannot speak for Datun but for me, it is diagnosing kids with something because they don't conform to 'gender' stereotypes, which leads them onto a lifelong pathway of drugs, dependency, frailty and potential sterilisation. AKA lying to kids that if you are a girl that likes [boys stuff] you are actually a boy.

This all needs rolling back before anyone else is harmed by this ideology.

Equally can't speak for Datun. For me it's that schools must stop a politicised response, that is unevidenced, biased, and taking a role in starting these children down pathways that as this report shares, are unevidenced, uncertain, not properly researched or carried out, and are not taking proper account of all aspects of the needs of the child even when carried out by the top professionals in the field .

School staff should be taking absolutely no part in this.

Original poster

rogdmum · 10/03/2022 16:38

For me as well it’s the hope that schools will stop with the unquestioning affirmation often behind parents’ backs if they recognise that social transition is an active intervention. Even looking beyond stereotypes, many children with complex backgrounds (trauma, comorbidities like anorexia, sex abuse etc) can look to transition as a “solution”. In these cases, their then following gender stereotypes can come as a result of a need to “present” as the opposite sex, rather than previous preferences to be GNC and adopting a belief that they are trans because they are GNC. If that makes sense…

At the moment, some schools are unwilling to let parents take the time to explore any underlying issues and insist on supporting a social transition straightaway. I hope The Cass Review will put an end to this and encourage schools to support parents who wish to follow a more cautious approach.

Exhales

OP posts:

AlisonDonut · 10/03/2022 16:15

Sorry I’m being lazy and not feeling well, what is ‘this’ that you cannot wait to be banned on schools? Thank you in advance

I cannot speak for Datun but for me, it is diagnosing kids with something because they don't conform to 'gender' stereotypes, which leads them onto a lifelong pathway of drugs, dependency, frailty and potential sterilisation. AKA lying to kids that if you are a girl that likes [boys stuff] you are actually a boy.

This all needs rolling back before anyone else is harmed by this ideology.

DisappearingGirl · 10/03/2022 16:15

Also a BMJ news article summarising the report, with an interesting timeline at the end of key events in recent years

www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o589

SirSamVimesCityWatch · 10/03/2022 16:03

@Datun

And yes. I cannot wait for this to be banned in schools. It will make all the difference.

Same. So far my (tomboy) DD is too young for this to have made an impact but I am just waiting for the day a teacher / speaker tells her girls don't like climbing trees and playing rugby and wrestling and getting muddy, boys like those, so maybe she's a bit instead? I will go ballistic.

Crossing fingers, toes and fallopian tubes that this sexist, insane ideology is rooted out of schools soon.

Leafstamp · 10/03/2022 15:59

@Datun

And yes. I cannot wait for this to be banned in schools. It will make all the difference.

Sorry I’m being lazy and not feeling well, what is ‘this’ that you cannot wait to be banned on schools? Thank you in advance

Datun · 10/03/2022 15:51

And yes. I cannot wait for this to be banned in schools. It will make all the difference.

Datun · 10/03/2022 15:50

[quote rogdmum]The accompanying documents on the website are worth reading as well, especially for the comments. E.g. this about the role of schools:

issue:

“ During the second facilitated workshop, it became clear that a key element of the pathway, which has not been addressed in the wider conversation amongst professionals, is the role of the education system. Some participants said that often CYP begin to express questions about gender identity in schools, and that their views and beliefs about their gender identity can be either negatively affected or reinforced by their peers or adults in the institutions themselves. This demonstrates the need for appropriate training to professionals working in schools and better joint working to ensure holistic support for the CYP.”

“The bit that’s missing is the fact that a lot of CYP have effectively already had a diagnosis made before they reach [the] medical profession – they’ve made it themselves, or it’s been made by school or another education professional. Theassessmentpathwayhasstartedbeforetheyreach CAMHS”

cass.independent-review.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/REPORT-Cass-Review-professional-panel-FINAL.pdf[/quote]
I'm loving the grown-up, rational language, devoid of ideology.

Compared to "a lifetime of discrimination and sneering" if Maugham doesn't get his own way.

We have often wondered out loud where the bloody adults are. Well there she is. And who ever chose her for the job presumably knew it, too.

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 10/03/2022 15:36

*“The bit that’s missing is the fact that a lot of CYP have effectively already had a diagnosis made before they reach [the] medical profession – they’ve made it themselves, or it’s been made by school or another education professional. Theassessmentpathwayhasstartedbeforetheyreach CAMHS”

And some of them will have been 'diagnosed' by their parents as toddlers.

Original poster

rogdmum · 10/03/2022 15:26

The accompanying documents on the website are worth reading as well, especially for the comments. E.g. this about the role of schools:

issue:

“ During the second facilitated workshop, it became clear that a key element of the pathway, which has not been addressed in the wider conversation amongst professionals, is the role of the education system. Some participants said that often CYP begin to express questions about gender identity in schools, and that their views and beliefs about their gender identity can be either negatively affected or reinforced by their peers or adults in the institutions themselves. This demonstrates the need for appropriate training to professionals working in schools and better joint working to ensure holistic support for the CYP.”

“The bit that’s missing is the fact that a lot of CYP have effectively already had a diagnosis made before they reach [the] medical profession – they’ve made it themselves, or it’s been made by school or another education professional. Theassessmentpathwayhasstartedbeforetheyreach CAMHS”

cass.independent-review.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/REPORT-Cass-Review-professional-panel-FINAL.pdf

OP posts:

HPFA · 10/03/2022 15:22

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

Cass writes with powerful clarity in that BMJ piece.

Review of gender identity services for children and young people
BMJ 2022; 376 doi: doi.org/10.1136/bmj.o629 (Published 10 March 2022)
Cite this as: BMJ 2022;376:o629

My interim report sets out my initial findings and advice. Here I set out my more specific reflections for clinical colleagues.7

Children and young people with gender dysphoria must receive the same standards of care as every other child or young person accessing NHS services

Primary and secondary care clinicians have reported to the Review that they are nervous about seeing children and young people with gender-related distress because of lack of evidence and guidance about appropriate management, and the toxicity of the societal debates.

Some clinicians also reported feeling unable to undertake the process of assessment and differential diagnosis that would be the norm in their clinical practice because they perceived that there is an expectation of an unquestioning affirmative approach. They felt that this was at odds with a more open and holistic evaluation of the factors underpinning the young person’s presentation, and consideration of the full range of possible support and treatment options.

As a result, a majority refer directly to GIDS, where the waiting list now exceeds 2 1/2 years. This means that these patients are not receiving the same level of care and support as other similarly distressed young people, despite being at high risk of mental health and safeguarding issues.

I'm inclining more to my previous interpretation of "not neutral" as above (of course I would).

My initial feeling is that it's a very skilfully written report.

I think trans activists will have a hard time explaining why it's wrong.

Cailin66 · 10/03/2022 15:18

[quote Awkwardy]The Cunning Little Vixenkiller has a different take...

twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1501884753309483010?s=20&t=XCQA2DceuQ-K6hP2EjgWqg[/quote]
I hope someone is screen grabbing/saving his tweets.

HPFA · 10/03/2022 15:18

If you are a young trans woman, absent puberty blockers, your voice will drop and you will develop an adam's apple and this will make it very, very difficult for you to 'pass' as what you feel to be your gender in later life.

The whole logic fail in a nutshell. If sex and gender are separate then why would making yourself look like a female sexed person be necessary for you to live as your gender?

A trans woman has always been a woman just as much as I am (I'm a female human) and yet somehow in order to be a "woman" she must make her body resemble mine as much as possible. Surely the implication of that is that I am a more "real" woman than she is?

This is the paradox I can never get my head around.

Artichokeleaves · 10/03/2022 15:15

@Datun

He's completely ignoring any of the co-morbid issues that these children have. All of it. From start to finish.

He wants to move heaven and earth to treat the symptom, and has no interest, whatsoever, in understanding the reasons for the condition.

If the condition is treated, the symptoms will improve. He doesn't appear to want the symptoms to improve.

I wonder what drives that?

Yes. The fear to acknowledge, to talk about, to consider certain aspects and factors is always interesting. Something about listening and engaging with those parts harms the chances of what is wanted.

Rather like listening to women's voices harms the chances of unconditionally getting what is wanted. Ackcnowledging the complexities, the incompatabilities, the many shades of grey and the need for solutions that work for everyone - always leads to this. Anger and emotive anecdotes that essentially say none of this stuff should matter. The end justifies the means, the end (and as referenced, it's always about males) justifies the collateral damage in process.

The responses are going to be interesting. It is going to become increasingly apparent if it is the case that evidence and objectivity is painted as being 'transphobic'.

Datun · 10/03/2022 14:41

He's completely ignoring any of the co-morbid issues that these children have. All of it. From start to finish.

He wants to move heaven and earth to treat the symptom, and has no interest, whatsoever, in understanding the reasons for the condition.

If the condition is treated, the symptoms will improve. He doesn't appear to want the symptoms to improve.

I wonder what drives that?

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 10/03/2022 14:37

And, in a society that is transphobic, you know that the changes that are happening to you will impede your whole life and existence. Put bluntly, they will mean a lifetime of people discriminating against you and sneering at you.

So many words that could be swapped for "transphobic" there…But misogyny, disability discrimination, homophobia etc. will never ascend to the sacred caste.

NecessaryScene · 10/03/2022 14:35

Because of tweets like this that absolutely would put the fear into any young person or their parents that they simply must have puberty blockers.

This is something I've seen general consistency on in comments from GC transwomen, like Debbie Hayton, Rose of Dawn, Fionne Orlander.

They deny that the UK has any significant transphobia problem, and say that they have almost no bad experiences in real life - basically no-one pays them any attention. They say this portrayal is complete bullshit. (The bad experiences they do get are online, from TRAs...)

Helleofabore · 10/03/2022 14:32

And, in a society that is transphobic, you know that the changes that are happening to you will impede your whole life and existence. Put bluntly, they will mean a lifetime of people discriminating against you and sneering at you.

And people wonder why Dr Cass said: We have heard that some young people learn through peers and social media what they should and should not say to therapy staff in order to access hormone treatment; for example, that they are advised not to admit to previous abuse or trauma, or uncertainty about their sexual orientation.

Because of tweets like this that absolutely would put the fear into any young person or their parents that they simply must have puberty blockers.

NecessaryScene · 10/03/2022 14:30

If you are a young trans woman, absent puberty blockers, your voice will drop and you will develop an adam's apple and this will make it very, very difficult for you to 'pass' as what you feel to be your gender in later life.

This is a good working example for Oliver Burkeman's tweet today:

Repeating my suggestion that everyone with a position on sex and gender issues tries restating that position without recourse to the word "gender". You ought to be able to; I think it would clear up a ton of confusion; and it might be very informative to see who couldn't do it.