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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Cass Review- Interim Report

314 replies

rogdmum · 10/03/2022 09:12

The Cass Review Interim Report has been released. 112 pages long and it’s such a bloody relief to read common sense.

cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/

There’s so much in it, but emphasis on taking a holistic approach with a great chart on page 57 showing the complex presentations in and complex pathways.

And social transitioning has been recognised as an active intervention!

“Social transition – this may not
be thought of as an intervention or treatment, because it is not something
that happens within health services. However, it is important to view it as an active intervention because it may have significant effects on the child or young person in terms of their psychological functioning. There are different views on the benefits versus the harms of early social transition. Whatever position one takes, it is important to acknowledge that it is not a neutral act, and better information is needed about outcomes.” Pages 62/63

So much in it. So much. And there’s more to come as the review continues to work on the issues.

OP posts:
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KittyLeMew · 11/03/2022 10:04

In this thread Sarah Philimore has been tackling the Fox Killer on exactly this:

mobile.twitter.com/SVPhillimore/status/1501897875105755137

Also came across a tweet about an 18 year old detransitioned boy (previously a trans ‘girl’) who was on puberty blockers and is now 5ft 2 with a non functioning micro penis and feels he ‘has no place in the world’, it’s fucking heartbreaking... Where is the evidence puberty resumes as normal once blockers are stopped? What about the fact that 98-100 per cent on blockers go on to fertility ending cross sex hormones? What about the surgeries and irreversible changes that occur on the way?

Detransitioner Awareness today tomorrow, would be good to amplify this where possible, make sure these stories are being shared and heard.

tabbycatstripy · 11/03/2022 09:43

I'm maddened by what's happening in terms of women's ability to speak out about this stuff. I'm having trouble with Twitter because (for obvious reasons) I want to hold two accounts. But Twitter has decided I'm a bot and suspended/restricted access. I would lose my income if I spoke openly about Cass and my beliefs about gender (which are perfectly reasonable and legal). But I want to be politically engaged and I shouldn't have to worry about saying what I think within the law.

nolongersurprised · 11/03/2022 09:33

The importance of fertility, health and sexual function

This is the part I find downright macabre. The - largely - middle aged, intact men who are pushing for puberty blockers for male children are focused on how well these children will “pass” as adults. Less so on how a 22 year old man who has received puberty blockers and cross sex hormones as a boy will be entering adulthood with the genitals of a nine year old boy. No sexual function, no orgasms, infertile. Who will want to be their sexual partners?

Signalbox · 11/03/2022 09:24

@KittyLeMew

I’ve had a look on Twitter and the pushback this is getting from TRAs is genuinely upsetting. WHY DO THEY WANT TO CONFUSE, TRANS AND RUIN THE LIVES OF CHILDREN, MAKE THEM INFERTILE, MAKE THEM LIFELONG PATIENTS I don’t understand it’s so obviously morally and ethically wrong? LEAVE CHILDREN ALONE!

Really sick of this now. Vile, damaging ideology.

They are so obsessed with aesthetics aren't they? The idea that someone goes through the "wrong puberty" and this means that they will be unhappy for life because they'll have the wrong look is held above everything else.

The importance of fertility, health and sexual function (or difficulties in finding the a life partner) are considered of secondary importance despite the fact that these are the things that most adults would say are important for a fulfilled/happy life.

KittyLeMew · 11/03/2022 09:11

I’ve had a look on Twitter and the pushback this is getting from TRAs is genuinely upsetting. WHY DO THEY WANT TO CONFUSE, TRANS AND RUIN THE LIVES OF CHILDREN, MAKE THEM INFERTILE, MAKE THEM LIFELONG PATIENTS I don’t understand it’s so obviously morally and ethically wrong? LEAVE CHILDREN ALONE!

Really sick of this now. Vile, damaging ideology.

DomesticatedZombie · 11/03/2022 09:03

'5.11.
At present we have the least information for the largest group of patients – birth-registered females first presenting in early teen years. Since the rapid increase in this group began around 2015, they will not reach late 20s for another 5+ years, which would be the best time to assess longer-term wellbeing.'

So not only is there inadequate information and data and evidence for treating girls, there likely won't be for another few years. So this generation are genuinely an experiment. I find that chilling.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 11/03/2022 08:43

@LizzieSiddal

Does anyone know why the head of this clinic is still in her job?
Because honour and a true embrace of Nolan and leadership are absent in plain sight.

Because we live at a time when our leaders and seniors occupy a rarefied strata where they flourish in a culture of impunity.

Because we're in a genuine battle between the humanity, utility, and moral authority of democracies and autocracies at every level of civil, political and geopolitical life. That’s what’s at stake here. Democracy would see the demand for accountability for those who facilitated this if they didn't have the honour to go. People like Sonia Appleby and David Bell would be valorised for everything they did to protect children.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 11/03/2022 08:30

@Morred

This is the bit that always boggles me. TRAs are adamant you can have “a female penis” and yet you can’t have a female Adam’s Apple or male breasts. Bizarre.
I remember a video of a TW who announced an intention to stop all personal use of vocal feminisation. As above, argued that if TWAW there could not be any need to adopt a high vocal register or anything else speech therapy taught because, by definition, TW's voice must be a woman's voice.

Can anybody remember who I mean?

ResisterRex · 11/03/2022 08:23

The review was raised in Parliament yesterday. Danny Kruger said:

"I call attention to the interim report from Dr Hilary Cass, which is just out, which highlights the vertiginous increase in young teenage girls presenting as trans. I am afraid I do not believe that we have suddenly discovered a whole new population of trans people who were repressed or denied. I fear that, by telling people that they can change sex, we are further confusing a lot of very confused young people at the most confusing time of their life."
hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2022-03-10/debates/1C377E5F-9903-48CD-A036-1F1728D726B2/InternationalWomen’SDay#contribution-38C89591-3C89-4DD0-8175-F13B951A32D8

Bernard Jenkin said:

"Today’s interim report from the independent review of gender identity services for children and young people by Dr Hilary Cass notes the rapid increase in the number of adolescent girls presenting with gender distress. It states:

“At present we have the least information for the largest group of patients—birth registered females first presenting in early teen years”.

It is essential that we understand why we are witnessing this historically unprecedented number of young girls who are finding puberty so difficult to navigate. The Government’s proposed conversion therapy Bill must be reviewed in the light of this, and we must wait until the full report comes out before we present the Bill for Second Reading."

Joanna Cherry said:

"Others have mentioned the very welcome interim report on the Cass review today, and I hope the Minister will be able to assure us that the Government will look carefully at that report and look into the alarming phenomenon of so many young women feeling so uncomfortable with their identity as women as they go through puberty in our society that they feel they have to change their identity to cope with those pressures."
hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2022-03-10/debates/1C377E5F-9903-48CD-A036-1F1728D726B2/InternationalWomen’SDay#contribution-39D3D47E-C38E-43FB-8BE5-45E44144C67C

LizzieSiddal · 11/03/2022 08:06

Does anyone know why the head of this clinic is still in her job?

LizzieSiddal · 11/03/2022 08:03

I wrote to the Times a few weeks ago about their increasing stance of turning comments off on articles discussing sex / gender identity. I never received a response. I wonder what is going on, too much moderation required possibly? I'm presuming only subscribers can comment. Would it be good if other people could raise this?

I sent an email yesterday and revived an email back within an hour. It said they turn off comments because of “legal reasons” and for “sensitive topics”. I suspect like you, it’s because certain people endlessly report the pro women comments and they don’t have the staff to moderate them, so womens rights are now viewed as “sensitive”. Whilst I’m not happy about this stance I am grateful for their fantastic journalism and will continue to support them with my subscription.

ResisterRex · 11/03/2022 08:02

It's on the front page of the Telegraph today at the bottom but they don't do share tokens. It may well be archived somewhere though:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/10/doctors-treating-gender-dysphoria-feel-pressured-adopt-unquestioning/

It covers the "pressure" felt by primary and secondary care staff to "adopt an unquestioning affirmative approach" as well as the rapid increase, lack of consensus and open discussion.

I think The Times covers the most ground in its article.

WarriorN · 11/03/2022 07:57

Yes indeed. I've said before that feminism should be taught in schools. Equipping girls, and boys, with the means to recognise sexism, understand how it manifests and why, and the means to combat it, would change society profoundly.

I do agree with this, but in a more neutral way. If we had "feminism classes" (I know you wouldn't be suggesting that but I know how it could become in schools) there would definitely be an incel back lash.

Understanding Sexism, as you describe, for both sexes, would be excellent.

WarriorN · 11/03/2022 07:52

Very good summary Datun.

A key aspect in a range of comorbid conditions is fear, insecurity and the need to extent some sort of control over those feelings and contexts.

This is exactly why toddlers and preschooler develop little foibles, resistance to things and tantrums, often especially in reaction to change or new things they're learning. They increasingly learn the world is an exciting but scary place and they have the ability to exert influence.

We see fear and anxiety in a lot in children on the autistic spectrum. Some of the young people I teach who are very capable and sociable communicators are actually the children with more anxious behaviours. A colleague has an autistic son and she often reflects that in some ways as he's less aware of the wider social world, that gives him a "softer bubble" to exist in.

Attempts to communicate fear or insecurity can translate to withdrawing, disengagement and often, particularly if the child also has adhd or has had trauma, extreme emotional reactions. Trying to cope in a 'normie world' (aka mainstream U.K. schooling) can create trauma for some. (Not all, these are generalisations.)

Anorexia is more common in teens with autism, often those not yet diagnosed and seemingly coping well in mainstream.

Traumatic experiences in childhood can create similar "symptoms" or observed behaviours to children with autism. I know of young people who have ended up with the autistic diagnosis as then the interventions and education routes are more appropriate for their needs.

It is not difficult to understand many aspects of gender dysphoria through the lens of an anxious need to gain some sort of control. And it shouldn't be difficult for the Tavistock quite frankly. I have many colleagues who understand this.

These are different between the sexes - for a male child I taught it wasn't about that. He just liked the stereotypes associated with the opposite sex. Very influenced by programs on tv and the stereotypical Disney films of the past. I don't believe he was gay either.

And despite what we are instructed by the National autistic society, there are definitely sensory involvements. If a child prefers the "wrong" sensory clothing styles associated with their sex, they are not "trans." In the last 15 years sensory processing needs has been added to the "triad" within autism social communication: social imagination, (social problem solving), and social interaction, because autistic people said these are the hardest aspects of daily life to deal with.

For some time I've noticed that Temple Grandin's voice has been quietly dropped. She has described perfectly these sensory difficulties and how she coped with them. She developed the squeeze box when she noticed how calming it was; we now have rollers in schools children can roll through. We have bear hugs which are basically like binders, but prescribed for short periods of time.

The thing is, as Dr Jess Taylor has been talking about, we have a tendency now in society and medicine to pathologise normal human emotions and reactions to events around us.

We can all experience feelings of pressure and a sense of needing some control over our lives. We all experience fear, low self esteem, burn out through over work.

I don't need to illustrate here how gender ideology offers a special status. When I was in my early 20s had friends who were involved in an active evangelical church. I remember being actively love bombed by them for a time, because they knew I was going through a tough time, before they realised I wasn't interested. I understood science and history and why religion is needed and used in communities. It came from a genuine will to help, but also because they had an ideology that they saw as the cure for everything. The church later imploded due to "scandals."

There needs to be a huge body of work around this, hopefully Cass will kick start it. It will take a long time to unpick the damage imbedded in organisations such as NAS, within education and within the nhs itself.

334bu · 11/03/2022 07:41

Thank you for Times share token.

ResisterRex · 11/03/2022 07:39

@WeeBisom @bellinisurge thought the same about the Guardian. It's like they read to half of some of the sentences and reported that (!)

I agree and also think that parents will read this. Finally, something independent and authoritative - it's useful in lots of ways.

bellinisurge · 11/03/2022 07:31

The Guardian is following Stonewall's line. But the comments about insufficient evidence and chilling effect on clinicians are right there for anyone to read. Which they will if they are interested because it isn't a long read

Datun · 11/03/2022 07:22

@Clymene

I'd also like teenage girls to be taught that discomfort with a rapidly changing body doesn't mean you're trans, just that we're living in a hyper sexualised world where breasts signify the transition from person to object for men. And that's a profoundly frightening experience to live through.
Yes. Taught to girls - and boys.

All part of RSE.

MidCenturyClegs · 11/03/2022 07:19

@WeeBisom

Did anyone see the Guardians take on this? Their headline is there aren’t enough gender clinics to satisfy demand and patients are waiting an unacceptably long time. The parts about there being very little clinical evidence for gender treatment were hidden away! That’s certainly an interesting take on the report.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/mar/10/nhs-gender-identity-service-for-children-cant-cope-with-demand-review-finds?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

A biased review, however, less so than their usual!

Clymene · 11/03/2022 07:16

I'd also like teenage girls to be taught that discomfort with a rapidly changing body doesn't mean you're trans, just that we're living in a hyper sexualised world where breasts signify the transition from person to object for men. And that's a profoundly frightening experience to live through.

WeeBisom · 11/03/2022 07:15

Did anyone see the Guardians take on this? Their headline is there aren’t enough gender clinics to satisfy demand and patients are waiting an unacceptably long time. The parts about there being very little clinical evidence for gender treatment were hidden away! That’s certainly an interesting take on the report.

PermanentTemporary · 11/03/2022 07:09

It's a very interesting read. I know someone who was part of the interviews and who always felt this would be a good result - for everyone.

Because there are still going to be a lot of children in distress and the gender lens being used to view that. Spreading the responsibility around from GIDS is probably the only way, and at least has more chance of rooting the response in a more generalist understanding of child development and mental health. Less of GIDS being a focus for everyone, including GC people like me. Perhaps it will be less of the situation we have now where organisations like Mermaids can name individual clinicians who they think are insufficiently enthusiastic about child transition in a vaguely threatening way (still can't believe they did that).

MidCenturyClegs · 11/03/2022 07:03

"Yes indeed. I've said before that feminism should be taught in schools. Equipping girls, and boys, with the means to recognise sexism, understand how it manifests and why, and the means to combat it, would change society profoundly. "

I thinking the other day that schools should unpick the meanings of these 3 words; FEMinism, misoGNY and SEXism. The b*stardisation of feminism (in the name of 'intersectional' feminism) to include trans identifying males my blood boil. When I pointed out those letters in caps of those 3 words to my woke teenager (who believes TWAW and they suffer from misogyny too) she want a bit quiet.

MidCenturyClegs · 11/03/2022 06:57

[quote McDuffy]Covered in the Times today, comments off.

Tavistock gender clinic not safe for children, report finds

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a607fa24-a09a-11ec-b38e-10b333e9179b?shareToken=57e922d8950bccf7adbfeaaa505b1403[/quote]
I wrote to the Times a few weeks ago about their increasing stance of turning comments off on articles discussing sex / gender identity. I never received a response. I wonder what is going on, too much moderation required possibly? I'm presuming only subscribers can comment. Would it be good if other people could raise this?

Datun · 11/03/2022 06:51

@Leafstamp

Thank you *@Datun* and others re what you’d like to happen in schools etc. I wasn’t sure if you just meant social transition.

FWIW I totally agree about wanting the promotion of gender ideology to be banned. As far as I’m concerned it already is but schools are ignoring the guidance/don’t understand the guidance.

I swing between wanting stuff banned altogether to wanting it ‘taught’ in a way that points out all of its horrible sexist, homophobic, racist, disablist messages. It’s probably age dependent. I’d like to see older secondary school students being encouraged to realise the full extent how harmful it is. And obviously younger children being taught that you can be anything if you’re a girl but you can’t be a boy.

Yes indeed. I've said before that feminism should be taught in schools. Equipping girls, and boys, with the means to recognise sexism, understand how it manifests and why, and the means to combat it, would change society profoundly.

Ironically, the unpicking of transgenderism is a lesson in feminism.

So yes, future analysis of why and how minds were lost to this damaging ideology will be invaluable.