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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Cass Review- Interim Report

314 replies

rogdmum · 10/03/2022 09:12

The Cass Review Interim Report has been released. 112 pages long and it’s such a bloody relief to read common sense.

cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/

There’s so much in it, but emphasis on taking a holistic approach with a great chart on page 57 showing the complex presentations in and complex pathways.

And social transitioning has been recognised as an active intervention!

“Social transition – this may not
be thought of as an intervention or treatment, because it is not something
that happens within health services. However, it is important to view it as an active intervention because it may have significant effects on the child or young person in terms of their psychological functioning. There are different views on the benefits versus the harms of early social transition. Whatever position one takes, it is important to acknowledge that it is not a neutral act, and better information is needed about outcomes.” Pages 62/63

So much in it. So much. And there’s more to come as the review continues to work on the issues.

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Rowlingfan · 26/06/2022 05:34

Thank you. I would like it to be soon but will just have to be patient.

Hoardasurass · 25/06/2022 22:04

@Rowlingfan we haven't been given an exact date only later this year

Rowlingfan · 25/06/2022 18:38

Excuse my posting on this older thread but I’m looking for information on when the Cass report might actually be published. I am really keen to push it under the noses of my employers…

DERFDogmaExlusionary · 03/04/2022 12:06

the "consensus" they are speaking about only came to exist because of pressure pushing out any dissenters

Yes ^

It's good to see Cass cutting through this. Responses from ideologues are meaningless and only support the review's findings

MangyInseam · 03/04/2022 12:01

Yes, and not only that, they are ignoring the fact that the "consensus" they are speaking about only came to exist because of pressure pushing out any dissenters. Those researchers and clinicians still exist and don't agree with the "consensus" around treatment, they simply have been maligned and not allowed to participate in the medical community in their former role, even when they remain world leaders in that area of study.

Tiphaine · 03/04/2022 11:47

Indeed, there is no evidence, as yet, that the Cass review has consulted beyond the UK. This inward looking focus may be a reflection of how England’s gender identity service has come to chart its own path in this field. For example, its current use of puberty blockers diverges considerably from international best practice. In particular, NHS England mandates that any gender diverse person under the age of 18 years who wishes to access oestrogen or testosterone must first receive at least 12 months of puberty suppression.13 However, many young people in this situation will already be in late puberty or have finished their pubertal development, by which time the main potential benefits of puberty suppression have been lost.11 Moreover, using puberty blockers in such individuals is more likely to induce unwanted menopausal symptoms such as fatigue and disturbed mood.14 For these reasons, puberty suppression outside the UK is typically reserved for gender diverse young people who are in early or middle puberty, when there is a physiological reason for prescribing blockers.

I can't access the response posted above, so I've taken this paragraph from your post NotBadConsidering, thank you. Haven't Finland, Sweden, and France all recently decided that medicalisation is only to be done with caution? It's not only the UK who have reviewed the treatment models they offer to these patients, and it's not only the UK who has found the alleged 'professional consensus' of various American groups to be lacking in robustness and rigour.

Tiphaine · 03/04/2022 11:19

@2Rebecca

3 Rapid responses to Cass's article on her interim report in the BMJ last month were supporting her. https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o629/rapid-responses?fbclid=IwAR3dIkZW3DLPPvHdznNsYOC2bIXXYvHJC6-Szg94mRxsxUDD1TavTTGzo

Thanks for sharing these. It's good to see such clear support.

DERFDogmaExlusionary · 03/04/2022 08:50

The nature of the BMJ response backs up and supports key findings in the Dr Cass review so far...

TheCurrywurstPrion · 03/04/2022 07:20

I imagine Dr Cass will be in no way swayed from listening to everyone who needs to be listened to.

I get that impression as well, which is excellent news for all children in the UK who are being pushed towards this pathway.

I also liked the rapid response from the GP, advocating a common sense approach, based on knowing the family. I suspect that kind of family GP is sadly less common than it used to be.

OldCrone · 03/04/2022 05:46

Cass seems keen to find a way forward that ensures “conceptual agreement” and “shared understanding” across all interested parties, including those who view gender diversity as inherently pathological.

This is odd. Aren't they the ones who are viewing gender diversity as pathological? They want to medicate these children. Why would they do that if they didn't view their condition as pathological?

nolongersurprised · 03/04/2022 04:54

There was a very flattering Australian Story piece on Michelle Telfer last year. All about the amazing work she was doing with trans youth and how the treatment was life saving. No actually journalism.

In it though, she said that the criticism had been so fierce she’d had sleepless nights, from worry and that she had started seeing a psychiatrist.

My interpretation is that, at some level, she appreciates that destroying the endocrine systems, fertility and sexual function of children maybe isn’t in their long-term interests.

NotBadConsidering · 02/04/2022 23:52

Hormonal treatment
In what was likely a disappointment to many, the interim report did not provide definitive advice on the use of puberty blockers and feminising or masculinising hormones. Instead, Cass advised that recommendations will be developed as the review’s research programme progresses. In particular, the report expresses the need for more long term data to assuage safety concerns regarding these hormonal interventions. Although additional data in this area are undoubtedly needed, the decision to delay recommendations pending more information on potential unknown side effects is problematic for several reasons.

Firstly, it ignores more than two decades of clinical experience in this area as well as existing evidence showing the benefits of these hormonal interventions on the mental health and quality of life of gender diverse young people.

No it doesn’t ignore this. It points out this this two decades has been done in an evidence-limited zone, with the purported evidence not being as good as it’s made out to be. None of the published evidence looks beyond a year. There is also published evidence that there is no psychological improvement from puberty blockers. This basically boils down to “we see kids who seem happy in our clinic, so it must work!” even though they have no idea how they go in their 20s.

Secondly, it will take many years to obtain these long term data.

But you just said there was two decades of clinical experience! Why weren’t you doing the proper studies during that time? And what’s wrong with it taking “many years” for something so significant?

Finally, Cass acknowledges that when there is no realistic prospect of filling evidence gaps in a timely way, “professional consensus should be developed on the correct way to proceed.” Such consensus already exists outside the UK. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the Endocrine Society, and the World Professional Association for Transgender Health have all endorsed the use of these hormonal treatments in gender diverse young people,101112 but curiously these consensus based clinical guidelines and position statements receive little or no mention in the interim report.

Because quite sensibly, Cass has elected to approach from afresh, to look at it from a primary point of view. When this is done it’s clear the guidelines and recommendations from organisations with conflicts of interest are lacking in evidence.

Indeed, there is no evidence, as yet, that the Cass review has consulted beyond the UK. This inward looking focus may be a reflection of how England’s gender identity service has come to chart its own path in this field. For example, its current use of puberty blockers diverges considerably from international best practice. In particular, NHS England mandates that any gender diverse person under the age of 18 years who wishes to access oestrogen or testosterone must first receive at least 12 months of puberty suppression.13 However, many young people in this situation will already be in late puberty or have finished their pubertal development, by which time the main potential benefits of puberty suppression have been lost.11 Moreover, using puberty blockers in such individuals is more likely to induce unwanted menopausal symptoms such as fatigue and disturbed mood.14 For these reasons, puberty suppression outside the UK is typically reserved for gender diverse young people who are in early or middle puberty, when there is a physiological reason for prescribing blockers.

Acknowledgment that puberty blockers cause mood disturbance in older children, so say it’s better to give them younger. No acknowledgement of mood disturbance at this age though.

Another possible reason exists for the Cass review appearing to have neglected international consensus around hormone prescribing. While the interim report often mentions the need to “build consensus,” Cass seems keen to find a way forward that ensures “conceptual agreement” and “shared understanding” across all interested parties, including those who view gender diversity as inherently pathological. Compromise can be productive in many situations, but the assumption that the middle ground serves the best interests of gender diverse children and young people is a fallacy. Where polarised opinions exist in medicine—as is true in this case—it can be harmful to give equal credence to all viewpoints, particularly the more extreme or outlying views on either side. Hopefully Cass will keep this in mind when preparing her final report.

This final paragraph is remarkable. It’s essentially saying “don’t listen to the bigots, their concern is false”. Basically ignore the detransitioners, there is no middle ground, affirmative care is the only way.

These are Australian clinicians, totally enmeshed in the affirmative model. I think they are feeling extremely threatened by the likelihood that facts and stories from detransitioners will expose everything they’ve done.

I imagine Dr Cass will be in no way swayed from listening to everyone who needs to be listened to.

2Rebecca · 02/04/2022 23:42

3 Rapid responses to Cass's article on her interim report in the BMJ last month were supporting her. https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o629/rapid-responses?fbclid=IwAR3dIkZW3DLPPvHdznNsYOC2bIXXYvHJC6-Szg94mRxsxUDD1TavTTGzo

DERFDogmaExlusionary · 02/04/2022 22:20

BMJ response to the CASS review
(Published 01 April 2022)
Cite this as: BMJ 2022;377:o825

"Acknowledgments
We thank Professor Annelou de Vries for her helpful feedback"

Footnotes
Competing interests: We have read and understood BMJ policy on declaration of interests and declare the following interests: KCP is a member of the Australian Professional Association for Trans Health (and its research subcommittee), the World Professional Association for Transgender Health, and the editorial board of Transgender Health. MMT is a past president of the Australian Professional Association for Trans Health and a member of the World Professional Association for Trans Health. JW is a member of the Australian Professional Association for Trans Health.

www.bmj.com/content/377/bmj.o825.full

WarriorN · 13/03/2022 14:14

@Lovelyricepudding

Lately I have seen a few posts on Facebook which acknowledge to link between autism and transgenderism - more autistic people are transgender than 'neurotypicals' (with 'neurotyptical' being used in the same way as 'middle class/middle aged/white'). But rather than expressing concern these take the line that it is something that autistic individuals should be screened for so they can get going with treatment/transitioning sooner.

The NAS are effectively promoting this idea on their website with the kinds of articles they're hosting.

highame · 13/03/2022 14:03

Thank you for these fantastic posts. I am so relieved the Cass interim report is out and I hope, I really hope that many of those who call us transphobes and bigots will at least read the report. Too much to ask, I know.

I'll bet no one loses their job

lifeturnsonadime · 13/03/2022 11:30

@Lovelyricepudding

Lately I have seen a few posts on Facebook which acknowledge to link between autism and transgenderism - more autistic people are transgender than 'neurotypicals' (with 'neurotyptical' being used in the same way as 'middle class/middle aged/white'). But rather than expressing concern these take the line that it is something that autistic individuals should be screened for so they can get going with treatment/transitioning sooner.
I've been thrown out of a couple of facebook groups for expressing concern about this.

Apparently being concerned that autistic girls are damaging their bodies makes me a bigot.

Apparently not following gender ideology means that I'm not entitled to be in groups to support parents of autistic girls.

Lovelyricepudding · 13/03/2022 11:12

Lately I have seen a few posts on Facebook which acknowledge to link between autism and transgenderism - more autistic people are transgender than 'neurotypicals' (with 'neurotyptical' being used in the same way as 'middle class/middle aged/white'). But rather than expressing concern these take the line that it is something that autistic individuals should be screened for so they can get going with treatment/transitioning sooner.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 13/03/2022 11:09

On p. 37 "The Review will seek to gain a better understanding of suicide data and the impact of puberty blockers through its research programme".

Lovelyricepudding · 13/03/2022 11:05

lifeturnsonadime, a friend's child suffered crippling anxiety and CAMHS response? "It is due to his autism, discharged". No attempt to help at all.

But when it comes to gender ideology all the big autism groups are totally captured.

lifeturnsonadime · 13/03/2022 10:45

@Whitefire

How do wait times for Tavistock compare to wait times for CAMHS?

A major concern is that if there is a diagnosis of Autism CAMHS will wash their hands of the YP, even if the issue isn't related to the autism diagnosis or is something that needs specialist input. The danger therefore is that a significant cohort of children will still effectively be ignored by CAMHS.

This is true.

I also wonder to what degree CAMHS have jumped on the 'affirmative wagon' when there is the first inkling of a gender issue. Referring a child to GIDS reduces their waiting lists.

I am in the CAMHS system with both of my autistic children. The norm is that they are diagnosed and then you are left to get on with it. You have to demonstrate anxiety beyond what is normal for children on the autism spectrum to receive help from CAMHS.

This is what really angers me about those stating that gender dysphoric children are unique in the sense that they have to cope with unacceptable wait times. Services are diabolical for children with autism or other mental health difficulties.

FWIW I think there is a massive link between Sensory Processing Disorder (which is co-morbid with autism) and the rise in autistic girls on the gender pathway. I have a non gender conforming 12 year old daughter, she can't bear the feeling of things that other girls wear, such as make up or tight clothes. She doesn't understand the social conversations that other girls have about make up etc. Autistic girls are so vulnerable to this. Mothers of autistic girls have been sold a line that gender ideology will fix their problems. Anyone who expresses a concern on the impact of this on these girls is a bigot. It's really frustrating.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 13/03/2022 09:41

@WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles

I'm finding it quite hard to unpick all the feelings I have after reading this. (I don't want this post to sound me me me but I imagine lots of you feel the same way?). My first reaction was a sense of relief, but also vindication, which I know makes me sound awful but hopefully I will explain it properly, although I'm a bit inarticulate today. Second to this though is an awful amount of anger, and sadness.

Like PP, I personally know young people directly affected, and indeed harmed by this ideology, physically as well as mentally. I'm furious that they have gone through this. I'm also furious that we (GC feminists, especially fabulous MNers) have been trying to say all this for so long, but have been ignored, shouted down, silenced and abused.

I feel a lot of anger that we were subjected to all this now that it's finally finally starting to be recognised that this ideology is harmful - all the way along we were the ones with DCs best interests at the forefront of our minds, when we have been presented as just the opposite - as though we were the ones wanting to harm DC. (I'm feeling furious just typing that). The amount of abuse women have received, all the pressure we have been under, women losing jobs and being silenced and ostracised.

There's also a sense of disbelief that it has taken this long for sanity to finally finally start (albeit very slowly) to prevail. That an ideology so fucking ridiculous (and SG's ludicrous comments listed up thread demonstrate this so well) has been allowed to become mainstream and used to brainwash and harm children.

I also feel ashamed that I feel an awful childish sense of told you so reading the report - it makes it sound as though I am triumphant that we are "vindicated". It's not like that, my main feelings are just relief, anger and sadness. It just feels like we have had to fight so many battles (not just things like being called a terfy child killing cunt on social media, but the horrendous RL battles of women who have been arrested, had to go through court, lost their jobs etc etc). I have always believed this ideology would eventually be recognised for what it was (and like PP said, there should be enquiries and it should all be brought very clearly into the sunlight) but fuck me, it's taken such a long time, at such a cost, and we aren't even there yet.

I think the Mermaids frantic back pedalling shows the direction of travel though. What a shame we have had to fight so hard for people to start to realise that removing the genitals of 16 yr olds is abuse not affirmation.

Wonderful post Flowers
YetAnotherSpartacus · 13/03/2022 09:38

I wonder if parents and HCPs have already raised this - maybe anyone reading this who has a direct interest could contact the inquiry?

SenselessUbiquity · 13/03/2022 08:59

@YetAnotherSpartacus

I’d really like to see claims about suicide ideation formally addressed.
This is really key.

Like @WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles I have a lot of confused feelings and in my case the confusion is exacerbated by some stuff that has been happening in my extended family over the past few years, and I am full of soul searching about whether I should have done more with my feelings that this young person was at the mercy of a horrible fad. I don't know that I could have achieved anything other than created bad feeling - but I don't know.

But yes this suicide thing really needs to be directly addressed, loudly, with data.

SNGNM · 12/03/2022 23:44

Can’t tell you what a relief this is to read, as a nurse who campaigns on the issues of sex and gender. This is what we’ve been saying. I hope to God kids get the care they deserve in future and this madness stops. Will be throwing this in front of every health organisation that subscribes to Stonewalls nonsense that we can now solidly refute.

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