Penny logic

Yes, and I've nothing against privileged white women at all, but she should own it and not tell women less privileged than her why we should agree to having our rights taken away because apparently, abusive men never lie. Seems Penny uses these 'identities' they claim in order to speak about vulnerable people with authenticity as a 'vulnerable' person themself. I'm calling horseshit on that.

Sounds like a very privileged background to this working class woman, and that the non-binary and various disorders have been thrown in an attempt to try to make themself sound more interesting and oppressed.

Agree with this. It comes across like Penny is trying to avoid being seen as a privileged and therefore problematic white woman.

I'm still not sure who this Laurie Penny person is, or why anyone should pay attention to anything they have to say on anything, least of all feminism since they claim they're not a woman. I've had a look at their Wikipedia page and it just describes a solidly middle class childhood, boarding school progressing to the standard Oxford degree and then becoming a journalist. Sounds like a very privileged background to this working class woman, and that the non-binary and various disorders have been thrown in an attempt to try to make themself sound more interesting and oppressed. If I want to be informed about how removing all safeguarding affects vulnerable women I would rather listen to someone who has worked in this area, an expert, rather than some randomer who claims she's terribly traumatised from her bad book reviews, and someone who has led such a sheltered existence that she claims abusive men don't lie.

OldCrone

Yes, that's right, trans people are the only class of people who never ever lie and never ever misrepresent themselves. They are a sacred caste of god-like deities on earth.

It's not trans people, it's people who say they're trans who are the sacred caste.

This.

When there is no description, definition, or any possible verification or identification of what trans is, means or looks like, then it's time to acknowledge that it's just a method to do all manner of things unchallenged, but largely to dominate women.

KookaburraSits, I don't think CurrtwurstPrion was weaponsing trauma. I vividly remember the elderly man who managed to corner me in a park one day. It was 1962/3 winter, and the park lake was frozen solid, so many people were walking or sliding on it. This man came up to me and started telling me how he had sex with his seventeen year old daughter (I was twelve) in graphic detail. I was a polite girl and did not know how to disengage with this predator. I made some excuse eventually and managed it, but not before I had heard more than I wanted - and the information affected my thoughts for years - and felt very upset. I told no-one either. That such men might be able, with impunity, to enter the few spaces women can be without men, horrifies me, too.

If she has CPTSD then I'm sure she will have had a lot of therapy for this condition. I am also sure, then, that she will have been warned by her therapist that things that trigger her traumatic response need to be avoided or reframed. I think it is unwise for someone so likely to be triggered to put themselves into the public eye and put their writing up for criticism, if negative reviews cause a relapse.

Maybe what she needs to do is retire from public discourse, social media and publishing until she is mentally resilient enough to cope with other people's opinions?

Laurie Penny identifies as intelligent. Why does she find this so difficult to understand?

If you go by the basic rule of thumb that 'identifies as' = isn't...

[quote Clymene]This exchange between Penny and JKR is delicious. Penny is so outclassed it's almost painful

twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1500890856265498626?s=21[/quote]
I don't know if it makes me a bit cruel, but this made me laugh so hard

I agree with your assessment WinterTrees.

Under all the schoolgirl spite is a very immature little girl who isn't as bright as she thinks she is

I've got to say I don't think that the spite is hiding an immature little girl at all. The characteristics and dynamic at play seems to be much more that of a very angry, entitled, narcissistic adult. (And I'll leave it there.)

A lot of the tactics Penny uses remind me of a certain young labour women's officer, who would regularly declare previously unmentioned experiences or characteristics when it suited.

[quote Toseland]In the Spectator www.spectator.co.uk/article/now-jk-rowling-takes-on-the-critics?fbclid=IwAR0Gywgg3CMtDk1IwU65SW2umYziDQrYX9Ump3Bp1rjy0fCie8-9Tbhn4yU[/quote]
That’s excellent.

Yes, that's right, trans people are the only class of people who never ever lie and never ever misrepresent themselves. They are a sacred caste of god-like deities on earth.

It's not trans people, it's people who say they're trans who are the sacred caste.

Of course everyone who says they're trans, is trans, so it amounts to the same thing.

Everyone who says they're trans, is trans. This group of people (who say they're trans, therefore they are) are a sacred caste of people who can never do anything wrong.

Of course when one of them does do something wrong (like Karen White) it turns out that that person isn't really trans.

So that means that not everyone who says they're trans is really trans. Or it means that not all trans people are angels who never do anything wrong. Or both.

Laurie Penny identifies as intelligent. Why does she find this so difficult to understand?

Sorry that doesn't make sense! I meant to quote Penny, not me! Hopefully you get the gist.

In the Spectator www.spectator.co.uk/article/now-jk-rowling-takes-on-the-critics?fbclid=IwAR0Gywgg3CMtDk1IwU65SW2umYziDQrYX9Ump3Bp1rjy0fCie8-9Tbhn4yU

According to mind:
The types of traumatic events that can cause complex PTSD include:
• childhood abuse, neglect or abandonment
• ongoing domestic violence or abuse
• repeatedly witnessing violence or abuse
• being forced or manipulated into prostitution (trading sex)
• torture, kidnapping or slavery
• being a prisoner of war.

These are not Penny's experiences and it's disgusting that she's weaponising other people's trauma to shut down conversation.

Cause by what though? And I can find no mention of it in their writings before this. Given that Penny draws extensively on their lived experience to make a point in their books, it seems extraordinary that she's never mentioned this repeated trauma before.

Again, CPSTD is for extreme trauma. As Clymene says, I'm surprised she hasn't mentioned it before.

Gosh, why would abusive men do something that makes it easier for them to abuse women? It really is a puzzler!

Worse than that, despite " acceptance without exception " rules for the rest of us, or lose your job or get called by the police etc , as soon as a crime is committed suddenly they were never trans in the first place. Thrown out of the category completely. No one calls the police on that though

Yes, that's right, trans people are the only class of people who never ever lie and never ever misrepresent themselves. They are a sacred caste of god-like deities on earth. Every other class of people should have to undergo safeguarding checks when working with or being admitted to safe spaces with the vulnerable, but never ever trans people because THEY ARE WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE. Especially trans people who have previously committed rape or adolescents with autism or mental health problems who want drastic surgery and drugs asap, their every word must be taken as absolute law at all times and anyone who doesn't agree ENTUSIASTICALLY is EVIL. Everyone knows abusive men never lie or pretend to be something they're not.

She's 35. How has she managed to get to that age so ignorant and naive about the way some males operate, about the exercise of power? She's like someone writing a book about sailing who has never actually seen the sea.

If she wasn't so cruelly dismissive of people who have suffered trauma and assault I might have a bit of time for her but this sounds like lots of other people who seem to develop disorders after spending too much time on social media