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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tavistock staff and Foucault

112 replies

MNadactyl · 05/03/2022 21:30

In the Telegraph. A whistleblower is also quoted:

“The identity politics that is colonising our public services is only causing further division and distrust which I cannot condone.”

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/05/nhs-child-gender-clinic-forced-u-turn-bombardment-wokery/

"Another series of emails last year saw the Tavistock’s LGBTQI+ staff network write a glowing profile of the French philosopher Michel Foucault, whose theories have underpinned woke ideologies but who posthumously faced allegations he abused boys in Tunisia in the 1960s.
Appearing to dismiss these claims, the Tavistock staff email said: “After his death, Foucault’s life and work were subject to a series of salacious attacks that focused on his sexual preferences."
Queer theory
The group also encouraged Tavistock staff to embrace “queer theory”, including studying identities “in which gender does not follow from sex and those in which the practices of desire do not ‘follow’ from either sex or gender”, as well as “anti-porn politics” and “butch-femme erotics”.
Another profile by the staff group cited the queer theorist Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick’s view that "‘many people have their richest mental/emotional involvement with sexual acts that they don't do, or even don't want to do”."

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MangyInseam · 09/03/2022 23:51

@Lovelyricepudding

For example in recommendations for African history month, there was lots of stuff on BLM and critical theory, anti-racism,

But surely that is North American history not African history?

Yes, it actually is mainly about North American blacks, particularly those in my part of Canada.

It's gone through several name changes over the years as the trends have changed. When I was growing up it was Black History month. I think now it's actually African Heritage month, and it was African-Canadian month (or something similar) for a bit but I sometimes get it mixed up. It doesn't help that other parts of Canada don't always use quite the same name.

Lovelyricepudding · 09/03/2022 21:04

For example in recommendations for African history month, there was lots of stuff on BLM and critical theory, anti-racism,

But surely that is North American history not African history?

DomesticatedZombie · 09/03/2022 18:48

Well, kids are taught exceptionally partisan political ideas. I think this has long been the case - it may be harder to see beyond your own prejudices than people realise.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/02/17/classroom-impartiality-rules-will-curb-pupils-freedom-speech/

FWIW, I think the issue is with how these issues are presented and navigated - teachers should strive to be as neutral and even handed as possible.

foodfiend · 09/03/2022 18:23

That's really interesting @MangyInseam It matches what I've seen in our local library service, and yes, I think it's the same issue - a well-intentioned, but ultimately harmful devaluing of neutrality and true tolerance.

Anyone else seen any of these super political email signatures in the wild? The more I think about it, the stranger it seems to me.

MangyInseam · 09/03/2022 17:49

@foodfiend

Leaving aside the Queer Theory (which just makes my head hurt) I just wanted to pick up something else in that Telegraph article about the Tavistock, which was the stuff about statements in email signatures. It seems absolutely barmy that someone would put a statement about Brexit being responsible for deaths in their work email signature. Imagine seeing that in an email from someone responsible for your medical care? But I suppose if everyone's been encouraged to put Black Lives Matter or Pride logos in their signature, (or pronouns for that matter, also a political statement) it probably seems quite reasonable.

Has anyone seen this elsewhere? Either 'organisationally sanctioned' political messages, or people making personal political statements like this?

It seems really, really odd and unprofessional to me.

Yeah, I agee with this.

I haven't seen it in emails, but I work in a public library system, and there is a lot of inappropriate approaches to what are contentious or politically sensitive ideas and movements that are very one sided.

People don't connect that we are meant to be politically, socially and culturally neutral to support these things. Part of it is that like a lot of helping and service based workplaces, people tend to feel they need to be sensitive to the oppressed and they tend to live in a bit of a bubble.

For example in recommendations for African history month, there was lots of stuff on BLM and critical theory, anti-racism, and nothing from other perspectives by black writers. When I pointed this out there was no real understanding that there were other perspectives.

MangyInseam · 09/03/2022 17:42

@DomesticatedZombie

I believe that in Foucault's case the accusations concerned 9 year old boys. Very far from consenting teenagers.
I don't think the particular case really affects how people interpret it much. They aren't looking at specifics they are repeating a trope.
foodfiend · 09/03/2022 17:30

Leaving aside the Queer Theory (which just makes my head hurt) I just wanted to pick up something else in that Telegraph article about the Tavistock, which was the stuff about statements in email signatures. It seems absolutely barmy that someone would put a statement about Brexit being responsible for deaths in their work email signature. Imagine seeing that in an email from someone responsible for your medical care? But I suppose if everyone's been encouraged to put Black Lives Matter or Pride logos in their signature, (or pronouns for that matter, also a political statement) it probably seems quite reasonable.

Has anyone seen this elsewhere? Either 'organisationally sanctioned' political messages, or people making personal political statements like this?

It seems really, really odd and unprofessional to me.

MangyInseam · 07/03/2022 17:42

It's the same thinking that says, Oh, that person had a bad idea, you agree with that person about something else, therefore you are advocating the bad idea.

MangyInseam · 07/03/2022 17:41

[quote DontLikeCrumpets]@MangyInseam

Perhaps this 6-minute youtube: "Queer Theory (Paedophilia) Jeopardy" might be just the thing to whip out when encountering anyone who is convinced that any claim that someone from the lgbt+ community might be sexually inappropriate is a slur.

[/quote] I suspect it wouldn't convince them. That's the way their thinking operates, they don't look at the information because they have accepted the idea that accusations like that are dog-whistles as a sort of first principle.
DontLikeCrumpets · 07/03/2022 17:37

@MangyInseam

Perhaps this 6-minute youtube: "Queer Theory (Paedophilia) Jeopardy" might be just the thing to whip out when encountering anyone who is convinced that any claim that someone from the lgbt+ community might be sexually inappropriate is a slur.

SamphiretheStickerist · 07/03/2022 13:36

Yes! For man who sought to learn and educate, theorise about power and sexuality he seems to have been oddly entranced by those who could offer him no intellectual debate whatsoever. Choosing instead those who lacked age, experience, a voice that could be heard. He chose those who were "primitive and exploitable" (much like Gaugin)..

Foucault was a writer on bloody colonialism and sexual exploitation, FFS! To even begin to try and pretend that shouldn't be acknowledged, to try and make it into something else is proof absolute that his theoretical observations were correct and presumably informed by his own experiences. Dehumanise them, exploit them, denigrate them and their 3rd world ways and nobody will care. Then stand back and watch others pick up on your dishonesty and peddle it themselves, all in the name of some greater good.

Nobody involved in the Tavistock should be spouting this crap. They are supposed to be educated in the ways of human relationships, communications, psyche etc.

DomesticatedZombie · 07/03/2022 13:15

I believe that in Foucault's case the accusations concerned 9 year old boys. Very far from consenting teenagers.

MangyInseam · 07/03/2022 13:12

I guess it seems clear to me that when they say sexual preference they don't mean paedophilia. Rather, they are invoking sexual preference as a defense against the accusation of paedophilia.

What I wonder is why they are assuming that the accusation is homophobic in it's origins, or do they somehow believe it is not possible for a homosexual person to target young people?

Some of this thinking does seem to come from an acceptance of the idea that boys, by which they mean homosexual teenage boys, are naturally going to begin to integrate into the larger gay male culture, and that is ok. And they don't look beyond that to see what is really going on, either in terms of the ages of these kids or the money changing hands, or even the potential for exploitation even where it is consenting teenagers.

DomesticatedZombie · 07/03/2022 11:41

Yes, the issues as far as I can see are

  1. using the term 'sexual preference' to refer to paedophilia
and
  1. using the word 'salacious' to dismiss concerns about paeophilia.

Foucault is really neither here nor there.

The issue is the group or person within the NHS - of whatever department - using these terms and what that says about their attitude towards boundaries and safeguarding.

MangyInseam · 07/03/2022 11:28

[quote DontLikeCrumpets]@MangyInseam "They are not defending it, they are dismissing it out of hand as a dispersion motivated by homophobia."

There is no mention of homophobia. The email stated: "After his death, Foucault’s life and work were subject to a series of salacious attacks that focused on his sexual preferences."

Using "sexual preferences" is quite weaselly as it doesn't distinguish between his appetite for boys and his homosexuality.[/quote]
The key words are "salacious attacks" which is to say that people were accusing him of inappropriate things in order to attack him. You're meant to understand they are saying that people are attacking him of this because they are either homophobic or because they are taking advantage of societies association of homosexuality with perversion.

This is a very common tactic now if anyone accuses someone who is publicly identified as gay of some kind of inappropriate behaviour it's dismissed as a dog whistle.

It's just a more grown-up sounding version of "You just thing all gay men are perverts you homophobe!"

Whether these people know that it's probably true that MF was involved in these things but are unwilling to admit it, or whether they believe their own hype, I don't know. I have certainly spoken to people about this general topic who have been so thoughtfully convinced that any claim that someone from the lgbt+ community might be sexually inappropriate can only be a slur that they can't process any evidence of it no matter how clear.

DontLikeCrumpets · 07/03/2022 09:13

@MangyInseam "They are not defending it, they are dismissing it out of hand as a dispersion motivated by homophobia."

There is no mention of homophobia. The email stated: "After his death, Foucault’s life and work were subject to a series of salacious attacks that focused on his sexual preferences."

Using "sexual preferences" is quite weaselly as it doesn't distinguish between his appetite for boys and his homosexuality.

DoNotTouchTheWater · 07/03/2022 08:56

‘Salacious’ is a ridiculous way to dismiss criticisms of the man himself.

Tbh, they’ve be best off engaging with his work about psychiatry and medicine and thinking critically about the new regimes they’re actively trying to build.

Lovelyricepudding · 07/03/2022 08:41

Eventually found the telegraph article not behind a firewall. Another thing that jumped out at me was the general politicisation of Tavistock with increasingly explicitly political messages being encouraged in their email footers. There should be no place for that any publicly funded body.

MNadactyl · 07/03/2022 08:32

If you were adopting a "don't go overboard" approach, you'd surely find a better route than the one reported. You'd hold up his works and why they're good etc. Or you'd provide evidence to rebut the reports. But I think you'd focus on his works and why they're still useful - and give reasons. "Salacious" is a "don't look here" kind of a term.

I think where this story is concerned, there must be more to but really - time will tell. Maybe more will come out. Maybe it won't. It was leaked to a journalist who seems to do these stories as his area of interest as well (his Telegraph page has a lot of identity issue stories). So maybe whoever leaked it, has more to tell us.

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OnlyTheTitosaurusOfTheIceberg · 07/03/2022 08:27

OP, you’re asking us to speculate on something we can have no way of knowing.

If the Tavistock emailer is an active part of the GIDS hierarchy then yes, dismissing claims of Foucault’s alleged paedophilia is a red flag.

If the Tavistock emailer is engaged in academic study of early psychosexual texts, has nothing to do with GIDS and was attempting a “don’t throw the baby out with the bath water” rebuttal of why Foucault is still, in their opinion, important to critique then that’s a different thing. And the problem is we don’t know, and will potentially never know, which of these positions the emailer was coming from.

I don’t think anyone here would dispute that position A is worrying. But you can’t blame an academic on the thread for also seeing position B as a possibility, given the Tavistock’s other work beyond GIDS.

I thought we were supposed to be the ones who upheld nuance and academic rigour?

MNadactyl · 07/03/2022 07:56

Some say dispersion, some would say this might indicate creating a sacred caste.

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MangyInseam · 07/03/2022 03:32

@MNadactyl

Trying to tell me. Interesting choice of scold there. And it is your opinion. Not a fact. In my opinion, Butler does fall apart without Foucault.

But. Again. Why would someone take it on themselves to defend Foucault against those reports of child sexual abuse? Why? There has to be a reason. Imagine doing that at work.

That is what I'm interested in, not the interpretations of theory.

They are not defending it, they are dismissing it out of hand as a dispersion motivated by homophobia.
DontLikeCrumpets · 06/03/2022 22:57

@MidsomerMurmurs "pseud’s corner vibe on this thread"

Not impressed with any academic qualifications you may have if the best rebuttal you can muster is a dismissive remark

nightscrollingdoom · 06/03/2022 22:14

Also i should say that much of the work of the original queer theorists of the 70s-90s was focused precisely on dismantling the idea that sexuality, sex and gender were linked in obvious ways. Especially in jettisoning the ideas around “gender inversion” that assumed that gay people were naturally the other sex but “trapped” in the wrong body.

Then transgender theory went and dumped all that dusty old shit right back in there again.

(Much of trans theory is essentially just a reworking of crappy early 20th century pseudo-medical “sexology” by people like Havelock Ellis, who was also an advocate for fetishes and eugenics, funnily enough.)

nightscrollingdoom · 06/03/2022 22:01

@Lovelyricepudding

I understand what you are saying. But it seems others misinterpret it this way. Perhaps Butler may be the answer? If her earlier work agrees with Foucault but now she is ignoring that to keep TRAS happy then the logic is Butler is pro gender, Butler agrees with Foucault so Foucault must be pro gender?

How do you see this linking with Queer theory? And what do you understand Queer theory to be?

She doesn’t “agree with” Foucault in that sense; her early work is loosely influenced by Foucauldian methodology, because she was originally a Hegelian scholar, and Foucault also derived some of his historical method from Hegel. But it isn’t like she just replicates Foucault as such. Critical theorists draw from a lot of precursors and contemporaries, and often they make use of some aspects but critique others, or they make use of a methodology but jettison part of the consequences of the thought, and so on.

Foucault himself was not explicitly interested in the idea of gender/sex (very much the main province of French feminism and psychoanalysis at that point in his career); but he is interested in sexuality in history. Largely male homosexuality, of course. There are, of course, many feminist criticisms to be made of Foucault about this, and lots of use to be drawn from his work too.

The initial phase of “queer theory” was very much about male homosexuality - “queer” of course being the slur against gay men at the time, not the current idea of “queer”. Sex and gender was very much thought of by male theorists of homosexuality (often dismissively so), as the province of feminists during the 70s-90s. Eve Sedgwick, in The Epistemology of the Closet (which typifies early “queer theory”), spends a lot of time in her work trying to justify why she as a woman is interested in male homosexuality, and why she should write on it if she’s not a gay man. (She does at one point make the somewhat comical statement that she can empathise with the marginality of gay men because she’s a fat woman, which is both kind of ludicrous and also…kind of not.) But her work was a very good polemical history of the gay rights movement in America, and how the politics and theory of sexuality might come together. It’s also famous for its rather overburdened prose style, but probably unjustly so. It’s worth reading, if you can stick with the prose.

That kind of “queer theory” sought to make a space in academic work and society for gay people to articulate their experiences and rewrite same sex oriented experience back into social and literary history. It’s a world away from the current daffy rubbish some TRAs come out with (here’s looking at you, Grace Lavery and Andrea Chu).

Much current trans/queer theory is a rather mendacious attempt to piggyback on the serious work of late 20thc century theorists of homosexuality and bisexuality. It adopts this body of work on sexuality and LGB history and tries to use it to do the same thing for gender ideology that was done for gay people. It’s usually pretty bad, though, because of all the obvious contradictions in gender ideology that we all know about. And it dismisses and co-opts the serious work of 20thc. feminist theory in a similar way. But to do so it rests on a kind of vulgarised postmodernism and a US version of identity politics, as well as a very uncritical notion of medical / clinical essentialism.

I enjoy writing about this, but I probably need to go to bed now!