Will female swimmers ever win Olympic Gold again? Thomas aims for top…

JellySaurus
As usual, women lose out. Or, in this context, perhaps I should say females lose out.

So transgender males are provided for, but not transgender females. Where would they compete?

Assuming a sex-based female category and an "open" category, I'm not sure trans men lose out more than trans women. A trans man taking testosterone could presumably compete in the open category just at a lower level. Similarly a trans woman taking oestrogen will lose (some) speed and strength so will take a performance hit in the open category. Both trans men and trans women need to make similar choices about continuing with high-level sport or physical transition.

Where I think there is a difference is safety in contact sports. I don't believe a trans man could play safely on a men's rugby team for example. And that risk only gets larger at less elite levels where players are more likely to (accidentally) make risky plays that cause injury to others.

The medical treatment for transition does affect performance so I think an additional category would be necessary.
I think it unlikely that there would be enough people in each category to make it worthwhile as a competition but, by all means, if trans people want to organize such a thing I have no objections. They don't get to mess up women's chance of competing fairly though. I really don't see how anybody can think that is right.

The difference was Hubbard was middle aged & out of condition (don’t get me wrong, Hubbard should never have been there) whereas Thomas is in peak condition & would wipe the floor with the competition.

The medical treatment for transition does affect performance so I think an additional category would be necessary.

Then maybe they need to make a choice between their sport and their gender belief. Like Bruce/Caitlin Genner, for example. Like most people in life have to make choices what they will sacrifice to achieve their dream. Only the rest of us don't get to choose what others will sacrifice in order for us to achieve our dreams.

I can only hope that LT is the person that breaks this wide open and sporting bodies see sense. We need more of these articles to spread the word.

If LT is allowed to swim in the worlds or Olympics then it’s game over for women’s swimming. No more inspirational women swimmers such as Sharon Davis, Becky Adlington, Missy Franklin’s, Katie Ledecky or Ariarne Titmus - to name a few.

In particular, I can’t see the Australians accepting this. Training to be an elite athlete and swimming is brutal. Someone high up needs to do something and quickly.

Lastly I am hoping LT will not be allowed to compete in the women’s. If they can’t compete at this level then trans should not be competing at any level in their chosen gender but in a separate category for those who use drugs or by their biological sex.

I want Lia to go to the Olympic. What better way to spotlight the issue? If Lia wins Olympic gold (as opposed to that middle aged weightlifter whose name I forget who wasn’t even any good) it’ll really draw attention to the issue.

Obviously I understand how unfair it would be to the women who wouldn’t win their rightful places, but maybe it would lead to a change that would benefit all women in sport.

I look at it as a forming of doping... if you need drugs to compete, its cheating.

If Lia feels happier living what they perceive to be as a woman, that is their business. But doesn't mean they have to expect everyone else to believe it.

*No it should be Open category and Female.

Trans should be able to compete in open. Why do we need a category dedicated to men?*

As usual, women lose out. Or, in this context, perhaps I should say females lose out.

So transgender males are provided for, but not transgender females. Where would they compete? Transgender females taking testosterone would rightly be barred from the Women's class, and have as much hope of success in the Open class as women do against TW in the Women's class. Probably even less, as TW in the Women's class tend to be mediocre athletes.

Athletes generally have to make choices over what is more important to them: their sport or recreational drugs, their sport or religious practice, their sport or their social life. This is no different. There are currently female athletes with trans identity, who do not take any gender-affirming drugs purely so that they can continue to compete. But males with atrans identity will not have to make this choice?

Just because he believes he is a woman, does not make him a woman.
Men competing in womens sports is grossly unfair.

Lia is an absolute boon for our side. The US is far behind on the gender debate. The higher Lia flies, along with all the sporting bodies shutting down discussion about it, the faster the US will peak.
Laurel Hubbard was bad, but Hubbard was also middle aged and in a far more over looked sport in NZ.
I hate to say it but I suspect Lia might help turn the tide in the US faster than any feminist voice might ever do.

At 6’4” with massive shoulders, good luck with that.

Trans should be able to compete in open. Why do we need a category dedicated to men?

If they were seeking specific LGBT groups or adding to mixed sex groups (with clear rules) there’s a clear precedent.
I think you are mixing up different things. We don't have LGBT teams competing in high-level competitions because there is no need. Being gay has nothing to do with athletic ability, sex does. If people want to be on a LGBT for social reasons that is up to them. Paralympics and age categories are all to enable fair conditions. You can't expect 6 year old football players to play against grown men or wheelchair-using basketball players to play competitively against able-bodies ones. Gender identity is totally different. It has no clear definition, not everyone has one, nobody can see it or measure it, it has no bearing on your ability to do sport. In short, it has no place in defining sporting categories.

It's amazing how many average male competitors realise they are actually women and go on to win medals. I wonder why sport attracts such a large number of people trapped in the wrong, non winning, bodies. Someone should research that.

But if a trans man was taking testosterone they presumably wouldn’t be allowed in the woman’s category and also wouldn’t be competitive in the men’s category so a trans man’s category could be a good thing.

I guess also that a trans woman taking hormones would not be competitive in the men’s category but would have an unfair advantage in the women’s category so again a different category would be a possibility.

These categories would not be based on beliefs but on physical differences due to hormone use.

Swimming is like any other sport: someone is going through the rulebook line by line and seeing where they can push back. So like when all the F1 teams start using a new funny wing - every team is going to be on the look out for a man who is up to swim as a woman for as long as it takes to win - or until they change the rules to catch up. The problem here is inclusion/be kind and someone got to the rulebook and anyway besides it's only wimmin's sport so who cares.

But we do already have groups specifically to encourage people from different communities ie LGBT or Muslim specific football teams, Paralympics to highlight disabled inclusion in sport, under 12s or over 35s teams to allow for fairness and increased participation of different age groups. If they were seeking specific LGBT groups or adding to mixed sex groups (with clear rules) there’s a clear precedent.

What we don’t do is completely remove a (protected attribute) category for a disadvantaged group because of the emergence of another disadvantaged group.

Lis is 6 ft 4 inches with a back twice the width of the girls.

Especially as I think many assume that a trans woman goes through surgery etc. There's so much info now about this person that it will be v difficult for the world stage to see anything other than a male body competing.

If lia gets to the Olympics, this will be what demonstrates how unfair it is.

The physicality can't be ignored.

Why? Is there a category for religious athletes? Or for Q Anon athletes? Or for athletes with body dysphoria?

Exactly. We don't need another category. Sex categories are fair. If you believe in reincarnation or innate gender identity or souls or whatever, it doesn't change reality. No-one is excluded by categorization by sex.

Sports is divided according to physiological categories, not belief categories. There is no more reason to create categories for athletes according to their gender beliefs than there is to create categories according to their other beliefs.