Exulansic has reduced following?

"The more extreme end of the GC movement have a problem with Stella because she gives people like Debbie Hayton a voice, and a degree of legitimacy. She is also respectful. She uses preferred pronouns."

Well that makes a little more sense to me as it does feel like this is a vendetta. More importantly (at least to me), it backs up the theory that the people attacking Genspect care more about going after MtFs than they do about our kids. Whatever people think about Debbie, he's on TV speaking out against transition for kids.

If there's hatred of men to spare, why not direct it towards emotionally absent fathers who let all the mums do the legwork? But now I see the answer: because the kids aren't the priority.

Heart breaking.

I don’t understand why Stella is a problem for you?

The more extreme end of the GC movement have a problem with Stella because she gives people like Debbie Hayton a voice, and a degree of legitimacy. She is also respectful. She uses preferred pronouns.

My guess (happy to be corrected) at what they really want is for Stella to say that transition is always wrong and these medical procedures should never be paid for by the state. That transsexuals shouldn’t be referred to as transsexuals because you cannot change sex. That people should never be treated or referred to ‘as if’ they have changed sex/ gender. That you should only ever use sex based pronouns.

That’s what some GCs don’t like. In their view, organisations like Genspect and Stella are using their legitimate and acceptable stance towards children and helping them, to wash other aspects of transition and transsexuality (“gender ideology”) with respectability.

It also reveals what some people’s real priorities and motivations are.

I would like to point out that I am not accusing anyone of being a paedophile, except the paedophiles themselves.

It is more that we should be aware that child centred protections should never be eroded. Paedophilia (child sex abuse) is not rights based.

Yes, articles were translated from dutch to english.

@264MyShirt I shall continue to feel free to reply to comments as I see fit, within the Talk Guidelines of course.

Now all you have to do is realise that other posters have that right too. Maybe don't barge into the lane of other posters and try to instruct/restrict where and what they can comment. Oh, and when they quite rightly tell you to bog off for trying to control them, don't try to pretend they are the bully. That is dishonest.

I shall post more from that 'Martijn' paedophiles case that was in court this week in Rotterdam. When I get a chance. Imagine they were only banned in 2014 after parents started a court case in 2010. Parents who are under no illusion but that paedophilia (as child sex abuse) damages children for their whole lives. Lest we forget there are the real live victims of paedophilia.

I'm sure most parents are relieved that the ECHR and the Dutch Court prioritised the wellbeing and protection of children over the 'right's of paedophiles.

@264MyShirt

I realize I saw the reference to Cantor awhile ago elsewhere when the question was first raised whether KD's claim that Genspect was linked to paedophilia was true. Given that the answer to that question was so succinct and thorough I am posting it here as it clarifies what happened that created this unfortunate confusion:

"It's a weak link. Aaron Kimberly and Sasha Ayad, advisors of Genspect along with the member Stella O'Malley have all interviewed Michael Bailey, the author of The Man Who Would be Queen (Aaron's interview here and Sasha and Stella's interview here .

They've also interviewed Ray Blanchard (here and here .

Both Bailey and Blanchard are listed as supporters on the Virtuous Pedophiles about page (Wayback Machine link to that page here virped.org/our-supporters.html) Also listed is Cantor who wants to throw a parade for pedophiles who make the huge sacrifice of not abusing a child...). It seems like most mainstream sex researchers are on the destigmatize-pedophile-train, including Debra Soh who is also listed as a supporter."

[quote DontLikeCrumpets]@264MyShirt

Is this the groups that has some sort of association with Cantor?[/quote]
I am not aware that I have mentioned any group that "has some sort of association with Cantor".

Cailleach1 - Errrm . . . How many people are operating this account??

The style is so different from post to post and this last one looks like it has been put through Google Translate to produce some vague approximation of English.

Oh dear. I think I shall have to take Michelle Obama's advice about reacting to posters who aim so low.

I see I have certainly touched on many more nerves having looked up (and posting here) what was a very problematic tweet by Cantor; on foot of curiosity about a comment made by another poster. And it being quite fresh as the very recent Netherlands 'Martijn' convictions show that we still need to be vigilant about such things.

Maybe the objection is that it isn't about the eponymous TT Exulansic (of the thread title) and so is deviated from TT Exulansic and fora/channels use as being the subject matter of this thread. That must be it.

However, I am of course giving the most generous and charitable assumption to the intent behind the personal barbs. For whatever reasons are behind that. And, attempts by other randoms to instruct people what or where they are allowed to post. For whatever reasons are behind that. Mind you, on a thread where there is already quite a bit of invective by posters about people don't agree with; this is calling for a bit of suspended disbelief.

@ScreamingMeMe
"King Critical and Rubble of Empires'

Thanks for the heads up. I just discovered Mr Menno and very much like the vid I saw - lighthearted by packed a much needed punch!

@264MyShirt

Is this the groups that has some sort of association with Cantor?

It is a very good question too.

If you are going to go in for that sort of thing, expect to be called out.

"that tweet about including the P and the inclusion of paedophilia being about rights is very much part of the issues being raised on the thread."

Is it really? In what way?

"I shall raise any point I find important or feel strongly about. Without asking any random poster's permission, thanks.

Now, get back into your own lane as just another poster on this thread rather than acting like it your own personal sub stack."

Quite the bully, aren't you?

I shall continue to feel free to reply to comments as I see fit, within the Talk Guidelines of course.

I'm new to mumsnet so I'm not sure I'm allowed to say this but I look at the thread above and quite honestly it looks like an agenda. Do cailleach1 and wanderinwomb have some vendetta against Stella O'Malley? Is there history I'm missing?

As the Genspect rebuttal says, it was Cantor who unearthed the crucial statistic that 80% of children with gender dysphoria desist. By this logic everyone who quotes that stat now has links with paedophilia. Genspect have no links with Cantor - they merely retweeted him a couple of times. This is a very weird thread

I think you should take your own advice, Myshirt. I won't be directed as to what I find relevant. This is not exclusively a thread about Genspect. Indeed, taking your own advice, you should feel free to start one devoted specifically to that topic. However, posters are free to post in any direction they are moved to do. It was originally (and I think the ship has sailed away from the title and opening post) which was about tt Exulansic, gettr, youtube, following people on platforms etc.

A comment was made about Cantor. So that tweet about including the P and the inclusion of paedophilia being about rights is very much part of the issues being raised on the thread. I shall raise any point I find important or feel strongly about. Without asking any random poster's permission, thanks.

Now, get back into your own lane as just another poster on this thread rather than acting like it your own personal sub stack .

Completely valid points, Cailleach1.

However, there is no evidence that I am aware of that these statements have any relevance to the current discussion about Genspect:

"They seem to try to attach themselves to other organisations. An imprimatur/cover of respectability, if you will."

"I doubt paedophiles have stopped trying to attach themselves to groups and organisations. Trying to infiltrate, influence and push their agenda."

"Will the day come when the poor 'p's' would be looked upon as just misunderstood. Maybe with supporters in rights groups battling for them and their 'rights'."

This is exactly the sort of leap of logic, from referencing Cantor's stats on detransition to suggesting that an organisation is part of a paedophile network, that has been used to smear Genspect and several other advocacy organisations that are broadly "gender critical".

Seriously, is every organisation, researcher or journalist who has relied on Cantor's research into Detransition to be considered "suspect"?

If so, there will be a very long list and, again, who benefits? Who benefits from making people scared to cite what scant research and stats are available on Detransition? Who benefits from linking detransition, detransitioners, their advocacy organisations and supporters to paedophilia?

Who benefits from smearing parents and organisations that advocate for parents with this subliminal messaging?

All on zero evidence of any connection.

If anyone is actually aware of any infiltration by paedophiles into these groups they need to come up with some evidence - and stop this "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" defamatory concern trolling.

BTW there is an existing thread dedicated to James Cantor here if anyone is interested:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3699723-dr-james-cantor-anti-transing-children-pro-paedophilia-as-valid-sexuality

When you're helping bring down the most successful voice for parents, why wouldn't you expect to be called a TRA? It's a natural assumption to make. Nearly all of Karen Davis's videos attack not only GC people but successful GC people. If all you do is bring down the GC people who are making a difference, aren't you a TRA by definition?

Unless I'm mistaken about how vicious they are (and I've been told they are very vicious), TRAs will be watching this thread. Do you want to give them ammunition? Why do all this in public?

It makes me feel like there are some people who would sooner parents WEREN'T represented, so they can just chat about how AGPs are awful. We need to get laws changed, and it really, really matters. People like Karen Davis do nothing.

I am amazed about Cantor's tweet itself, though?

On the substantive issue of paedophilia, it would be naive to think that paedophiles trying to normalise their abuse or wish to abuse children (and their enablers/supporters) aren't always with us. They seem to try to attach themselves to other organisations. An imprimatur/cover of respectability, if you will.

This whole paedophilia de-stigmatising thing seems to be fairly suspect, in my opinion. I know the Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE) openly operated under cover of the National Council for Civil Liberties (NCCL) in the UK. And, only just recently (8th March 2022) a former Dutch Paedophile group 'Martijn' had chappies convicted of still associating, contrary to being banned in 2014 from doing so.

Just look up maandelange celstraf voor oud leden pedofielenvereniging martijn (translation: month-long prison sentence for former members of the pedophile association Martijn). It is in nu.nl (binnenland).

Two former members of the banned pedophile association Martijn were sentenced on Tuesday by the court in Rotterdam to prison terms of four and six months. The duo continued the club for years, after the Supreme Court declared it illegal in 2014.
According to the judges, "pedo activists" Marthijn U. (49) and Norbert de J. (43) from Hengelo "glorified sexual contact between adults and children" and "downplayed its harmful consequences" by several websites, a video channel and a mailing list on to put. Children were portrayed as "sexual beings".

In doing so, the two did exactly the same as the banned association Martijn did, according to the judges. "They have flouted the court verdict." The sentence for U. was two months higher, because he played a more prominent role. During the trial against both, the Public Prosecution Service demanded the maximum prison sentence of one year.

The verdict in the trial against the third suspect, Nelson M. (27) from Lelystad, has been postponed.

During the lawsuit, M. initially set the defense aside. The suspect was angry because he could not follow the process via Skype. M. fled to Mexico and has applied for political asylum in that country. The organization Free a Girl has started a petition to prevent this. The petition on the Free a Girl website has already been signed more than eleven thousand times.

Martijn (like PIE with NCCL) had attached itself to a rights organisation. Again they had some familiar lines like adult-child sex not always being damaging.

MARTIJN was a Dutch association that advocated the societal acceptance of pedophilia and legalization of sexual relationships between adults and children. Also, MARTIJN was expelled from the International Lesbian and Gay Association in 1994.

These paedophiles and paedophile supporters always seem quite determined to misuse rights organisations, and don't give a hoot about tainting the good name of an org. for same sex attracted people. The adults in 1994 could see their game and were obvious not happy as they threw them out. Martijn made an appeal to the ECHR in 2015 (after being banned in the Netherlands in 2014) about their right for freedom of association, and it was rejected. I doubt paedophiles have stopped trying to attach themselves to groups and organisations. Trying to infiltrate, influence and push their agenda.

I wonder if the ECHR would make that same judgement today? Will the day come when the poor 'p's' would be looked upon as just misunderstood. Maybe with supporters in rights groups battling for them and their 'rights'. In this new upside down world.

Others can correct me if there is more to this than I am aware of but what I have seen so far wrt to Cantor in relation to Genspect, it boils down to:

Someone involved with Genspect made reference to or relied on Detransitioner stats published by James Cantor.

Note: As have many others, including some who are now producing this as evidence that everyone involved with Genspect is "paedophile adjacent" and/or are "paedophile enablers" and/or "part of a massive paedophile network".

Cantor's significance and relevance to this field is not his contentious views on paedophilia but his contributions to understanding the nature and prevalence of detransition, desistance and transition regret.

There are several published articles, some peer reviewed, by James Cantor about Detransitioners, Desisters and Transition Regret. I do not know which one(s) have led to the bizarre "six degrees of separation - guilt by association" phenomenon that has led to appalling accusations that parents and professionals associated with Genspect are therefore paedophiles and/or "paedophile adjacent" and/or "paedophile enablers".

Incidentally, Cantor was being vilified by TRAs for spotlighting Detransitioners, Desisters and Transition Regret long before his controversial tweets about paedophilia.

Cantor's articles categorised as "Transgender" on his blog "Sexology Today" (there are also Categories related to Pedophilia):

www.sexologytoday.org/search/label/Transgender

Example of a peer-reviewed article:

"Transgender and Gender Diverse Children and Adolescents: Fact-Checking of AAP Policy"
14 Dec 2019
www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0092623X.2019.1698481?journalCode=usmt20

Examples of articles citing Cantor's research on Detransition/Transition Regret (there are LOADS of these BTW):

"DO CHILDREN AND TEENS WITH SERIOUS GENDER DYSPHORIA EVER OUTGROW GENDER DYSPHORIA? YES"
www.genderhq.org/trans-children-gender-dysphoria-desistance-gay

"The Ranks of Gender Detransitioners Are Growing. We Need to Understand Why"
Lisa Marchiano, 2 Jan 2020
quillette.com/2020/01/02/the-ranks-of-gender-detransitioners-are-growing-we-need-to-understand-why/

"A Response to the Uproar Over My Piece, "The Detransitioners"
Katie Herzog • Jul 3, 2017
www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/07/03/25262759/a-response-to-the-uproar-over-my-piece-the-detransitioners

Just for clarity, that remark about Cantor was made on the other thread, and the thread has since been deleted.

I don’t understand why Stella is a problem for you? She has stuck her head above that parapet for us. I’m so grateful that she has. Why would her involvement be a problem? I don’t understand why you want to smear her or Genspect? OK, I understand you don’t like the rebuttal, they are not a huge organisation and others might have handled it differently -but by banging on about the tone or the words that they have used you are inadvertently, perhaps, implying that they have something to be ashamed of. It’s not right, parents like me need support and I feel like you are trashing that support for some reason I just don’t understand.

Sharing accurate information is "kicking off"?

I will leave others to judge who is "kicking off".

You claimed that Genspect was creating a problem for itself by projecting an image of itself as an organisation advocating for children via their parents.

I have demonstrated that Genspect is doing no such thing. It states explicitly that it advocates for parents.

Parents, by definition, have children.

That does not mean that an organisation which advocates for parents therefore must therefore, by extension, actually be advocating for their children.

That is just illogical - and untrue.

I have not got time to waste typing out the names and credentials of all the Advisors listed on the Genspect Team page:

genspect.org/team/

I would ask that people please visit the page to see exactly who is being accused of being part of a "massive paedophile network".

Then ask, whose interests does it serve that these individuals and their organisations are defamed in this way?

WanderinWomb - "It reminds me of the shouts of "How dare you?" hundreds of us heard directed at a young woman with safeguarding concerns in a different organisation."

I don't know who you are referring to but what is happening here reminds me of the dangers illustrated in the story of The Boy Who Cried "Wolf!"