Exulansic has reduced following?

These are women though. So you want to extract tissue , persuade it into meiotic division and produce sperm? The thing is, the germ cells and their mitotic products do not have functional androgen receptors and androgen stimulation is required for spermatogenesis.

Having said that, testing at birth doesn't really make sense for a condition this rare. Not on the NHS anyway.

Completely agree Caillieach, these things need to be dealt with sensitively. What's best for the children should be the concern. Not whether it helps or hinders men trying to pretend to be women.

I think the discussion of this issue is not because of the needs, situation or significance of those with this/these disorders. I suspect (and it is only my opinion) it is because some/many people think it opens doors for others to 'identify' or conflate their situation with those who have any of these disorders.

Knowing as early as possible is still best, in my opinion. Even from a practical level. No one knows what therapies medical science will develop in the future. If you knew that you child has this condition, and they could get treatment to 'turn on the gene' and be able to 'activate' the receptors, why would you not access that? As a parent. Obviously if the treatment is not worse than the condition.

Also, the studies showed that a certain percentage of individuals had precursors to sperm (I think in CAIS). What if a way was developed in which they were able to mature these precursors to viable sperm? You'd give your child the possibility of becoming a parent, and having a family in their future relationships.

I wouldn't be advocating a situation where everybody is kept as ignorant as possible, for as long as possible. Forewarned is forearmed!

Sorry forgot inverted commas there. So then Ex starts going off on one of her fantastical tangents and starts saying all babies should be tested at birth. And someone says what for, apparently for CAIS, so again what for, as what is the point ? So Ex says so they can be told about there condition and that they will be sterile when they grow up so someone points out it is not necessary and abusive. Wait till a period doesn't come. But no, we must keep them out.
Can't get my head around it all just what is going on. I used to very much respect the pair of them. In some ways they still produce some good stuff but both seem to be becoming extremists and noone gets a chance to defend themselves. If anyone so much as tags Claire into a message that's it you are part of the conspiracy.

I honestly don't know what's happened to my username .

There are only 2 sexes. I'm leaving gender identity out of it as it doesn't seem evidence based.

More worryingly, last night I was on gettr, I don't know if that's cool on here or not, but I can tell you that the way Ex and Karen are behaving is getting frankly worrying. There are also some dangerous tras around threatening to do her address and also report her to her professional body. This is completely out of order. One tra got banned. Then it emerges that Claire Graham really is going to report Ex to the Prof body. She is deadly serious and has looked up definitions of bad behaviour and how Ex behaviour matches up. I have to say her behaviour does match up yet I still think it's wrong to report someone unless they are frankly dangerous. Anyway you can imagine the fracas as Karen says.

But looking at recent postings Karen is frankly going batshit crazy calling anyone who raises any issue all sorts of names and interrogating them. She did this to me and she didn't realise that she was talking to someone who has followed her from the beginning and contributed many positive comments to the chat. She treated me like a piece of shit tonight. Like I'm a tra, and others are being similarly treated. Someone called are has been accused of writing the offending dilation leaflet. They have PAIS but are at the female side. Karen is calling her a man and accusing "him" of promoting online dilating sessions with this booklet as a sexual fetish. There is no evidence and this is a dsd advocate of 10 years . Then someone gets hold of a copy of this leaflet and there's at the back a list of all female authors who are consultant Dr's. No apology to Rae they just condemn him for her stern letter proclaiming her innocence.

But I cannot agree that DSDs have ANY place in the transgender argument.

They are though, because the are part of the whole structure of the belief system. It's not just that some people make direct arguments, in it's more sophisticated forms it's an indirect argument that's being made.

One example being the with regard to the idea that there is this thing called gender identity which is separate from sex. Some people, even some psychologists, think that because it is possible to have a person who is technically male, but who has a "real" self-identity as female - and what's more this is socially recognized so not some crazy fantasy - this is evidence that somehow gender identity is separate from or can form apart from our experienced of a sexed body.

So, because we know there are people with DSDs who are biologically male but identify as female we can extrapolate some kind of capacity for gender identity that is separate from the sexed body itself.

Since most of us don't want to deny that, people trying to push gender ideology find that's a powerful argument with many people, and then they use it to argue that there are other situations in which people might experience this different gender identification.

So it's not just the argument that being transgender is a dsd, it's this argument about the existence of a kind of gender essence which can in some cases be experienced as separate from the body. Dsd's are just evidence of that in this scenario.

Someone needs to do the work to really dig deep into this idea of gender identity - our sense of ourself as male or female - and how it's formed, IMO. Because the idea of some essence is just a bad conclusion but seems compelling to a lot of people who should know better.

@ATeamAmy He deleted the abusive tweets. He called natal women by the terms I described. Feminists were particularly singled out.

Yes I know, DontLkeCrumpets, but surely the GC side can say in response, "CAIS* is the exception to the rule women will accept into the female fold, everyone else with XY genes we will not, " and that will suffice in argument and commentary, rather than cruelly dissecting their condition and ending up throwing them into the arms of TRAs who will support them unconditionally (because it helps their nefarious cause).

*Simplifying as I don't know enough about PAIS, MAIS etc

I'm not on Twitter, but just looked at Cluniac's page. I can't see him calling women bitches and cunts. I can see he said, "I really genuinely hate all of my followers. I think you're disgusting selfish people." He's in high state of distress and projecting his own self loathing. He's not handling becoming someone others follow and listen to because he has no love of himself. He's ill. Have some compassion.

If you search for the terms "CAIS" and "phalloplasty" you can find out more RVN123.

Cluniac's vid is sad but his conduct on Twitter yesterday killed off any sympathy I once had for him. I have a close friend with BPD so I know how destructive a condition it can be, but to call women who have been nothing but kindly towards him bitches and cunts? Nah. I don't think his latest spiral is Exulansic related; it's possible to be both mentally ill and vindictive and I reckon he's both.

This whole thing is why its so disgusting that TRAs have weaponised people with DSDs in the first place.

@ATeamAmy "I completely agree that DSD conditions should not form any part of the GC discussion and respect the request that they be left alone."

TRAs are responsible for bringing DSD into the discussion because they are using DSD to argue sex is a spectrum so therefore sex single places are pointless.

Sex is Not A Spectrum
www.realityslaststand.com/p/sex-is-not-a-spectrum?s=r

Also, I'm assuming that there may be girls with CAIS who will decide to actually embrace their XY genetic status. What is their status? Are they transitioners?

Yes, these people do exist and some do undergo gender reassignment surgery. I won't link. It is unclear how (un)common it is.

I'll also add that Cluniac has dropped a pretty heartbreaking youtube video today and he's talking about transitioning again and is clearly deeply depressed and distressed. I really hope that he has not suffered a pile on as a result of defending Exulansic.

Just to be clear, I am not talking about teen/adult transitioners. Just those who were socially transitioned as very small children, had it drilled into them that they are female, and have gone on to have medical interventions at a young age. Obviously we are campaigning for a world where this does not happen, but there will be a group of children for whom this is their life now and there is no going back.

I agree with everything said about girls with CAIS needing to be the exception to any rule written along a strict XX/XY boundary.

However, having followed these arguments these last few weeks, my hardline stance on trans people (no DSDs involved) has been challenged. I can't see any moral difference when it comes to people like Jazz who have been brought up from a very young age (an age that few of us would have clear memories of) as female, have been told by all the responsible adults around her that she's female and that her genitalia is a mistake by God or similar, has gone on puberty blockers that have rendered her male genitalia next to useless and led her to develop a typical female appearance, and ultimately had bottom surgery. The notion that Jazz and individuals like her should be encouraged to/forced to abandon their identity and "resume" being male is, I think problematic. The only difference in a trans case to a girl with CAIS is that, in the former, the child is surrounded by mendacious, exploitative adults (and even that's not cut and dried in the case of well-meaning parents following medical advice), and in the latter, the parents are wholly innocent. And either way, as far as the child is concerned, they are not responsible for parental actions over which they have no control, and medical misdiagnosis.

Also, I'm assuming that there may be girls with CAIS who will decide to actually embrace their XY genetic status. What is their status? Are they transitioners? Surely we cannot morally oppose any girl with CAIS deciding they would like to identify as male?

It's a bloody minefield, and I completely agree that DSD conditions should not form any part of the GC discussion and respect the request that they be left alone. Having said that, I have seen DSD charities linked as a parent resource on GC websites, so possibly our side is also muddying the water.

[quote DontLikeCrumpets]@RVN123

@oldwomanwhoruns is bang on and you are missing the point of what Exulansic is doing. Exulansic is fighting against the idea that sex is a spectrum. This is a crucial fight, a key component against men having access to all female spaces. TRAs are using DSDs to argue that "biologically" there is no such thing as binary sex, that male and female are biologically blurred so there no biological basis to claim that woman are adult females.[/quote]
No, sorry, I'm not missing the point.

Sex is binary, I've always said that and have argued it.

What there ARE are disorders of sexual development that are vanishingly rare, that none of us are likely to encounter in our lifetimes, and that have no bearing at all on the trans debate.

Since DSDs occur no more frequently in the trans population than the general population, it's completely irrelevant to the issue.

It doesn't matter what TRAs are arguing. A lot of them are quite frankly unhinged.
I thought WE, on the other hand, were supposed to be the rational ones - can we not accept that there are very rare legitimate disorders of the sexual pathway which may have a legitimate claim to using female spaces?
Again, I'll ask - if it was YOUR daughter/niece/grandaughter - just diagnosed as a CAIS sufferer at 16/17 years of female life, are you saying she should now STOP using female spaces, start using all male facilities and spaces, changer her pronouns so people "know" she is male etc? That you would stop thinking of her as anything other than a female? I just don't buy that anyone would think this was right or acceptable.
Can't you see that there is nuance here?

@oldwomanwhoruns
And none us will see a denial because TRAs got what they want which was not only to effectively silence her by getting her off youtube but also to cast her as over the top mean and unkind.

She called out the individual who said they were CAIS and brought up female, as a male brought up a man. Hence they were telling whopping porky pies.
That's not a technical nuance, that's exposing a deception. If true. And I've not seen a denial. Unless anyone knows better?

[quote DontLikeCrumpets]@RVN123

@oldwomanwhoruns is bang on and you are missing the point of what Exulansic is doing. Exulansic is fighting against the idea that sex is a spectrum. This is a crucial fight, a key component against men having access to all female spaces. TRAs are using DSDs to argue that "biologically" there is no such thing as binary sex, that male and female are biologically blurred so there no biological basis to claim that woman are adult females.[/quote]
I'm sure, given how everything is so bloody fudged by TRAs, that being single minded about what constitutes a male or female can come as a relief to some.

But I honestly don't see why you can't know that a person with CAIS is technically male, but should be treated as female from start to finish.

I mean has she seen anyone with CAIS??

Treating them as anything other than the female they believe themselves to be would be a complete nonstarter. Totally pointless.

It's an odd mindset that refuses to accept a technical nuance, based on the fact that other nuances, of a completely different nature, are detrimental.

I stopped following her on YouTube before the DSD row because she posted too much. I still got her videos on suggested and I did watch a lot. I was never going to follow her to another platform though, and at this point I've stopped listening because I disagree with her perspective and her behaviour.