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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A report from a mother of a swimmer - USA

91 replies

pombear · 28/02/2022 19:01

I don't think there's a thread on this yet. This is such a powerful testament on behalf of her daughter's experience swimming against Thomas.

The coercion and pressure on the young women in the teams is shocking, as is the ACLU response when the mother contacted them.

"I was told that the words biological and genetic had no business being in a discussion around sex and gender. I was told transwomen are women, they're female, they're girls. No language that minimises that point should be tolerated. I was told it was an offensive question, my language was out of date. I was told that sex and gender are equally important and that the ACLU is actively removing sex from legal documentations and legal language"

She (ACLU rep) concluded with. "Let me tell you with certainty, the ACLU will never represent ciswomen against women"

When I shared this with my mother in law the next day she said "Well, there you go, we're literally flying the plane upside down now, aren't we"

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Crouton19 · 05/03/2022 16:53

@Misstache thank you for sharing your story. You are absolutely right - if a person wants to transition above all else, it comes with sacrifices. Every major life decision does. Please do consider putting your story on a blog or sharing it with a trustworthy journalist. It will encourage others to speak up.

Waitwhat23 · 05/03/2022 16:31

Sorry, having re-read the article, that's a summary, not an exact quote but the actual quote is arguably worse -

'He criticised the parents of the student who held the party where the assault took place for allowing “coeds and female people to swim in their underwear in their swimming pool” and for “16-year-olds to bring liquor to a party”.

“And you wonder how these things happen. Well, that’s how these things happen,” he said (my bolds).

“‘These things happen’ is shorthand for ‘boys will be boys’,” says Professor Dauber.

“That if you put a girl in underwear in a swimming pool and add alcohol then boys will be boys.

“He’s completely minimising the severity of the offence.”

DdraigGoch · 05/03/2022 15:25

'That if you put a girl in underwear in a swimming pool and add alcohol then boys will be boys.'

Good god, a judge actually said that? An actual judge? I knew that there are some daft old fossils in the judiciary but words fail me.

Worrysaboutalot · 04/03/2022 16:20

@Datun

Worrysaboutalot

Is it this swimmer?

Yes, that's him. The two young men who found him cried, they were so horrified.

I remembered as the two male witnesses were upset, stopped the attack and caught him. They were good men and the other male a nasty lowlife. I think he only served 3 months in the end! Ridiculous sentence.
Datun · 04/03/2022 12:45

Worrysaboutalot

Is it this swimmer?

Yes, that's him. The two young men who found him cried, they were so horrified.

WarriorN · 04/03/2022 11:54

@Misstache

I echo others here; that's was an incredibly moving post and I'm sorry to hear of your experiences.

I agree that your experiences, that post as it is, and point of view, which few with have ever experienced, need to be heard somehow.

MangyInseam · 04/03/2022 00:23

@aloris

I'm getting very tired of the misleading language, such as saying that trans girls are being "banned from sport" or "are not being included." That is not an accurate reflection of what is being asked. All that is being asked is that they simply should play in the division that reflects the reality of their biological sex. They are not banned at all.

Just read another article saying, "It's not about fairness." Of course not. When it becomes obvious how unfair this is to girls and women, we are then told that it is not about fairness. What is really meant is that, they know it's unfair to women and girls, but women and girls are not important enough to be treated fairly.

I think, at root, it's that women are not seen as fully human. We are merely service units to the REAL humans, i.e. male-bodied people.

The more things change, the more the awful treatment of women (the kind with a female body) remains the same.

The logic is that if there is an oppressed group, it's always fair to give them an advantage over people in a non-oppressed group. So, say university admissions. It's not about fairness to real individuals, it's about justice (so-called) for a particular group.

Women aren't at the bottom of that ladder but they aren't at the top either.

MangyInseam · 04/03/2022 00:17

@TheAbbotOfUnreason

In one respect I can see why the UPenn coach(es) have gone along with this. When your livelihood depends on results and a 6’4” swimmer with all the advantages of male puberty is going to smash the competition and they can play the be kind / transphobe card they’re literally onto a winner.

From experience, swim coaches who find being able to pay their bills depends on the results they bring to the club can be ruthless, abusive and uncaring to the swimmers who put their trust in them.

Honestly I think what you are saying, and the way student athletes are treated, all come down to a bigger problem with the way sports are part of the college system in the US. Huge amounts of money are involved for colleges, there can be huge salaries for coaches, and for students sports can be their ticket to a college education.

And the same is largely true at the high school level.

It's not great for education.

Worrysaboutalot · 03/03/2022 19:19

@Datun

Fucking hell Misstache that was a difficult read. I found my teeth clenching harder and harder the further I got.

It does, however, account for the disgusting sexism that is being displayed, as it appears it's nothing new.

It sounds as though you were 'allowed' to do sport, as though it was a bloody favour, and you had to pay through the nose to do it.

I'm reminded of that disgusting rapist, whose name escapes me, who was caught red-handed raping an unconscious girl, and the judge went very lightly on him, lest his 'sports career be ruined'. The contrast is gutting.

You should broadcast your experiences from the bloody treetops, if you can. I'm sure most people have no real idea how unequal it is across-the-board, even before even the advent of freshly minted cheats and woman haters.

Is it this swimmer?
A report from a mother of a swimmer - USA
Pallisers · 03/03/2022 18:05

@misstache thank you for two really powerful posts.

aloris · 03/03/2022 14:58

I'm getting very tired of the misleading language, such as saying that trans girls are being "banned from sport" or "are not being included." That is not an accurate reflection of what is being asked. All that is being asked is that they simply should play in the division that reflects the reality of their biological sex. They are not banned at all.

Just read another article saying, "It's not about fairness." Of course not. When it becomes obvious how unfair this is to girls and women, we are then told that it is not about fairness. What is really meant is that, they know it's unfair to women and girls, but women and girls are not important enough to be treated fairly.

I think, at root, it's that women are not seen as fully human. We are merely service units to the REAL humans, i.e. male-bodied people.

The more things change, the more the awful treatment of women (the kind with a female body) remains the same.

Sophoclesthefox · 03/03/2022 08:10

I’m furious all over again on your behalf, misstache. Thank you for your powerful testimony. Women and girls matter.

Datun · 03/03/2022 01:51

@Enough4me

Perhaps a fast flood is better than a trickle. Enough that it doesn't just become embarrassing it becomes outrageous. The general public see Bob and Dave competing as Sue and Liz, great hulking men leading the races for 1st and 2nd. Women way behind.
It already happened in Connecticut. First and second.

www.espn.com/espnw/article/29347507/the-battle-title-ix-gets-woman-sports-raging-national-debate

This is where the girls lost a lawsuit to have them excluded.

www.outsports.com/2021/4/25/22402933/trans-athlete-lawsuit-andraya-yearwood-terry-miller-connecticut-adf-federal-judge

Research shows all students benefit when trans students are included in sports. What this case should show is that these bans are wrong, and trans people belong, in sports and everywhere in our society.”

Enough4me · 03/03/2022 00:34

Perhaps a fast flood is better than a trickle. Enough that it doesn't just become embarrassing it becomes outrageous. The general public see Bob and Dave competing as Sue and Liz, great hulking men leading the races for 1st and 2nd. Women way behind.

YouSayYesISayNo · 03/03/2022 00:29

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Datun · 02/03/2022 23:49

@TheAbbotOfUnreason

In one respect I can see why the UPenn coach(es) have gone along with this. When your livelihood depends on results and a 6’4” swimmer with all the advantages of male puberty is going to smash the competition and they can play the be kind / transphobe card they’re literally onto a winner.

From experience, swim coaches who find being able to pay their bills depends on the results they bring to the club can be ruthless, abusive and uncaring to the swimmers who put their trust in them.

That being the case, every other coach, at every other uni is going to do the same, in order to remain competitive. They'll be flooding the fucking place with blokes.
TheAbbotOfUnreason · 02/03/2022 23:08

In one respect I can see why the UPenn coach(es) have gone along with this. When your livelihood depends on results and a 6’4” swimmer with all the advantages of male puberty is going to smash the competition and they can play the be kind / transphobe card they’re literally onto a winner.

From experience, swim coaches who find being able to pay their bills depends on the results they bring to the club can be ruthless, abusive and uncaring to the swimmers who put their trust in them.

SheldonesqueTheBstard · 02/03/2022 21:21

YouSayYesISayNo
I didn't realise that Lia Thomas had been named Swimmer of the MeetAngry

TheAbbotOfUnreason

Cheat of the Meet has a better ring to it.

Cheat with the meat. and two veg

Appalonia · 02/03/2022 21:09

This is the Glinner video with coach Linda Blade
m.youtube.com/watch?v=8RrHR4hNNUU

Appalonia · 02/03/2022 21:06

Misstache wow so powerful. Utterly rageing for what you and your teammates have been through.

Masdintle · 02/03/2022 20:57

Makes me want to weep. Our poor girls 😥

OperationDessertStorm · 02/03/2022 20:53

That’s so important- would you consider putting it on substack or similar? I’m sure you could use a pseudonym.

Appalonia · 02/03/2022 20:49

Just wanted to say, The Mess were in had a fantastic show tonight with Linda Blade who talked about this and the state of women's sport in Canada.

Misstache · 02/03/2022 19:58

I meant, I keep seeing people say.

Misstache · 02/03/2022 19:58

Thank you ladies! I had to go do work so only coming back to the thread now.

To the woman who said my experience sounded abusive: this is what is so infuriating about the Lia situation. College sports at that level aren't a democracy. Ivy athletes aren't on scholarship, but for everyone else, scholarships are year to year. If a coach doesn't like you and wants to get rid of you, they don't have to give a reason. No athlete is going to win against their coach and athletic department even if you could afford a lawyer. Imagine if you're going into your senior year. You can't get an academic scholarship at that point, coaches talk to each other so if one coach decides they don't like you they can tell other coaches not to accept your transfer, and another school might not even have your academic program or accept credits. They can kick you off the team whenever they want and if you don't have money to pay for school, that's your problem and you could lose your whole degree.

By the way, when my friend had that experience with her roommate being raped by another athlete, a bunch of us wanted to wear rubber wristbands against sexual assault. Sports communities are really small: like swim mom said, we all grow up competing against each other so lots of us are friends. We had a meet against their school and we wanted to wear little wristbands about sexual assault and we were unequivocally told no, that politics weren't allowed in the NCAA. They told us if we wanted we could sit down with a counsellor and talk about our feelings. And that was just a bracelet no one could even see! So to hear the mom talk about suddenly being forced to wear T-shirts with a political slogan - see the difference when women want to speak out about issues affecting us?

Another thing, since I'm sharing - I keep saying people say, well sports shouldn't be about competition anyway, it should be about inclusion and social benefit. So if it's not about competing, how come LT has to compete so badly? Men get to compete and women are supposed to treat sports like social work or something as if we didn't train our whole lives, watch what we eat, wake up at the crack of dawn, have our families sacrifice everything!

And on a team, we were always told we had to tolerate different viewpoints. It's not like a friend group where you get to choose. On teams you have conservative girls, super liberal girls, girls with different religions, different cultures and countries and races...we were always told we had to learn to respect each other's differences and work together. I had a super pro life teammate, like I mean now she protests abortion clinics pro life. I had extremely religious teammates who wanted to pray before meets and atheist teammates and Jewish teammates. And that's part of being on a team. But suddenly with LT, everyone has to shut up and there's only one viewpoint allowed and no one is even able to have another viewpoint?

And last thing, if you haven't competed at this level it can be hard to understand the relationship you have with your teammates. Yes, everyone doesn't always get along (e.g. pro life teammate) but when you're competing together you're all each other has. It's really tough being an athlete at that level. We train together like 20 hours a week. You live together, have study hall together, get screamed at by the coaches together. When you're having a bad workout, it's your teammate looking over at you and telling you to keep going, it will be over soon, you can do it who gets you through. At the US Olympic marathon trials, Shalane Flanagan was having a really terrible day and her teammate ran with her and was like "we're both going to make it" and literally talked her through it. That's what your teammates mean to you. When your coaches are on you, or you're injured, or life is going badly, you come into practice and those girls are who holds you up and gets you through. So hearing about how LT is making these girls unsafe in the locker room, and how they have to pretend to like it - it affects everything. How do you trust your teammates if you confide in them and then they say you're a bigot and might report you? How do you laugh with your teammates about farting in practice or flooding with your period or something if LT is there and you don't feel comfortable? It changes that whole dynamic and means teammates can't even depend on each other if the school is basically surveilling them.

But yeah, when people are saying why don't the girls just refuse to compete I don't think they understand how much control teams have, how you've been trained to be obedient, to swallow pain, to not complain, to suck it up, to put yourself aside, to stay positive, to support your team, to be perfect and good...how do those girls even find their voice? The coaches and AD have all the power and if you don't like it, you can leave and leave all your friends, your whole life, your whole identity. But only LT's identity matters, not women.

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