Feeling Very Disturbed

Excellent point.

The thing is 'nice' refers to a concept, a thing that exists in human brains. it's created by human brains. See also social or cultural concepts. 'Marriage' is a good example. You might come up with a fomral definition of marriage that encompasses the different form s marriage takes and has taken over time and place. But in common usage 'marriage' means different things at different times. Notably, in the UK we have recently expanded the meaning of the word 'marriage' to include a formally registered relationship between 2 adults of any sex. Some objected to this and said no, marriage can ONLY be between a man and a woman.

But because marriage is a human invention we can in fact all agree to change what it means. Other things like '5' or 'water' or 'dog' exist independently of humans and therefore we can't redefine them.

Language changes all the time. A word that means one thing at one time may eventually come to mean another thing. E.g. nice, whose original meaning survives in the phrase 'a nice distinction' but otherwise is a very different word.

However, we don't usually lose essential words, words we learn very early in life and use frequently. Woman, man, boy, girl, female, male are such words. They refer to the biological reality that homo sapiens is a sexually dimorphic species, just like all the other mammals. Recognising and living with this reality is not the same thing as accepting the limitations imposed by sexual stereotyping.

@Needmoresleep, I am no sort of scientist, but from the little I know about genetics, it is indeed fascinating. You'd hope, though, that if push comes to shove, senior medics, vets and other HCPs and all biologists would accept that every single human being alive on the planet now and throughout history started life in the womb of a woman who then gave them birth.

We need a word for the class of humans whose bodies develop very soon after conception to provide the large gamete and to be capable of gestation, birth and breastfeeding. We have one. It's female. Adult human females are women, juvenile human females are girls.

We need another word for the other class of humans whose bodies develop very soon after conception to produce and supply the small gamete. We have one. It's male. Adult human males are men, juvenile human males are boys.

We will always need these words. Changing their meaning as some people are trying to do means we can't communicate clearly and precisely. In healthcare, that leads to potentially lifethreatening consequences.

eu.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2019/05/16/pregnant-transgender-man-births-stillborn-baby-hospital-missed-labor-signs/3692201002/

@PermanentTemporary

How does a doctor believing TWAW show respect or women? It's absolutely disrespectful to women.

I am loosely acquainted with a male neurology registrar who tweets aggressively that TWAW. Loads of doctors are fully bought in. The drive to believe and respect patient reality and the drive to respect women, both good things, and the drive for patient choice, a more ambiguous positive, make it inevitable that there was going to be a change in this direction despite the obvious issues in medicine and risks to women. Tbh I don't think things will change back, I am completely pessimistic.

Also - if you're feeling disturbed, it's always heartening to visit the Project Nettie site to see that scientists have not all swallowed the KoolAid:

projectnettie.wordpress.com/

Yep, vet nurse here, I can confirm that the gender fairy has waved her/his/their magic wand over the veterinary industry too.
Doesn't seem to have stopped us knowing which animals to remove testicles from and which ones need their uterus removed.

Bizarre that.
It's almost as if biology exists!

Also, I won't be injecting a 30kg dose of sedative into a kitten who identifies as a Rottweiler.

It hasn’t escaped my notice that it’s often the same people who berate anti vaxxers for being unscientific cranks who believe that humans can change sex and that women have penises and men can give birth. The cognitive dissonance is astonishing.

You can show your colleagues this op

Sorry about your experience OP, I can understand why you find it distressing. I've been in similar situations and think they silence us quickly because they don't want us to see how just many people disagree with TWAW.

Must say though, I'm finding it amusing that a plopper thinks its wrong for VETS of all people to have a "bioessentialist" view of sex.

To those who have contributed to the VS thread - thank you! You have been so eloquent, and explained the concerns so well.

I feel your pain. I work in a scientific background. So many highly respected scientists who are full on TWAW with pronouns in their bio. One of our senior leaders has worked at some of the most prestigious universities in the world and is at the cutting edge of his scientific field. He has fucking he/they pronouns. It’s so hard to comprehend why highly educated intelligent people are embracing this unscientific pseudo religious batshittery.

When the ideology evolves to you can be whatever you want, vets can expect parents to bring DC who identify as fish to work out why fish flakes aren't enough...because when you deny material reality you live in an imaginary bubble.

Trans women being women ≠ trans women being the same as cis women

Please don't use the term "cis" - women are not a subset of their sex.

And you know, biology is pretty essentialist, especially for mammals. That doesn't mean our culture & society have to be essentialist, as we can see that just because men can't reproduce, doesn't mean they're not creative; and just because women can reproduce, doesn't mean they're not intelligent.

But we have to acknowledge that men and women's bodies are different.

I’ve not come across VV. Sad to hear that the admins were so fearful that they deleted. I don’t think the Vetsurgeon thread will be deleted. It will be interesting to see how it goes.

[quote Leafstamp]@Lekisa658 do tell us your definition of 'woman'.[/quote]
Yes please. We've been waiting for one for ever so long. Posters keep coming on here and telling us our bioessentialist (what?) definitions are all wrong, but never explain what is wrong about them or, more importantly, give us the correct definition so we can correct our thinking. Perhaps Lekisa will be the one to set us straight (metaphorically speaking..). A nonbioessentialist defintion of woman would be marvellous..

Aargh! Sympathy and solidarity @FeelingVeryDisturbed
I've just this afternoon had a similar experience.
Seconds after I confirmed I'd deliver a session for IWD at a single sex space I've been keeping at arms' length, I received the invite advertising me and assuring attendees, "Please note this event is for women, trans women and non-binary people only."
So not women then

@Lekisa658 do tell us your definition of 'woman'.

OP I get you. I belong to a social group that includes a very senior medic and a STEM academic from a well regarded university.

For some reason the discussion veered towards transgenderism. I expected some to be quick with the TWAW, but was surprised to hear these two agree that we are learning more about chromosomes all the times and that things are not as binary as previously thought.

Eye opening.

Trans women being women ≠ trans women being the same as cis women.

Quite so. Because transwomen are males, whereas the people you call 'cis' women are females. The first half of your statement is a lovely example of an oxymoron.

I disagree with your not-equals. Both statements are equally untrue.

@Lekisa658 they cannot be the same or transition and detransition could not take place.

It is not possible to say you are what you are not, at the same time as actually being something else in material reality. When I wear my cat outfit I'm not biologically the same as my cat.

Not everyone subscribes to your bioessentialist definition of "woman".

Those will be men then.

so.....what would be a not bioessentialist definition of 'woman'
I'm all ears

Not everyone subscribes to your bioessentialist definition of "woman".

My definition of 'woman' is 'adult female human'. What's your definition of 'woman'?