Email from teacher: Child has come out as non binary

a culture that is potentially extremely harmful to people with genuine marginalised sexualities.

Of course, many of the girls declaring themselves trans are lesbians.

Sorry, even small seizures & MN do not mix.

Where that tails off was meant to be about how, if ALL trans students (inc NB ones) are offered alternative changing provision for PE that would be a huge pull-factor to girls, particularly, already experiencing push-factors in terms of how they relate to their gender & their [sexed] bodies.

The school may have been doing LGBT History Month stuff (if you’re in the UK, at least) during February, which may have layered things up rather, too.

And before I try & throw my phone to the moon again I think I should stop trying to post: I didn’t want to leave the seizure-broken unfinished one with its jagged edge like that though.

I hope everything works out with & for your DC - whatever is going on, this must be very stressful for you both

I honestly think, @GoingtoGlasgow, that someone of any age who wants their pronouns to be they/them to feel respected even if they can't hear themselves being talked about would benefit from counselling to help them to unpick the whole length of CCP-hue-approved bunting designed to be hung all along both sides of the Great Wall that statement immediately sets flapping, sharply, in the mind’s eye.

Were I you, I would be quite anxious to know not only about DC’s interactions with peers at school (& at any extra-curricular activities they may do) but also about how & where/when they’re engaging (& with whom, precisely) with others online.

There is absolutely a logic to seeing claiming non-binary [trans]* identity as a way to obtain privilege & protection: it moves you away from being one of “The Cis”, who are openly mocked, derided, & villainised; & it affords you special status. Please don’t misunderstand me, I’m not saying I think you have some horrible child on a power &/or manipulation trip; rather, my concern is very much that they may have been made to feel so powerless that they are now frantically trying to find a way to protect themselves.

Are NB students allowed to change separately/privately for PE? That’s a tangible benefit I can understand

• some NB people ID as trans & others do not

Ok this is going to sound harsh but if I had gotten a text message from my DS saying he was NB and asking if I accepted him, I would have gone straight to him for an in person talk. I would have said that I will always love him but tbh, I'm disappointed that he is participating in a culture that is potentially extremely harmful to people with genuine marginalised sexualities. And I would have talked to him about the long term consequences of this new culture for gay, lesbian and bisexual people in same sex relationships. That young, straight people trying to co-opt a place in their culture has already eroded so many of their spaces and unfortunately is beginning to impact on their safety. I would tell my DS that I will support him in who ever he is inside. But that it will be a real struggle to accept their actions, when and if those actions hurt others. And that I'm not disappointed now, because they didn't know. But that I would like them to keep an open mind and learn with me about how damaging this culture can be to the people who's culture they are claiming to have a part of.

I would also let them know, that if they are homosexual or bisexual, I wouldn't accept that. Because to 'accept' that implies that there is something not so good in their sexuality that requires accepting. There would be nothing in that for me to accept, just like there would be nothing for me to accept in them being heterosexual. Their sexuality would never, for one single second, change how much I love them, like them, feel about them. But if they are heterosexual, I would expect them not to infringe on the needs and rights of people who might, throughout their lives, be made to feel like they need acceptance and might not get it.

Genspect guidance on social transition- genspect.org/guidance-on-social-transition/

Gender:A Wider Lens - gender-a-wider-lens.captivate.fm/episode/40-social-transition-a-powerful-psychosocial-intervention

‘Wrong gender” I meant wrong sex. She was a trans boy, and your DC says they are non binary, but it had a lot about the social pressures.

This is from a detransitioner but is eloquent about some of the influences that had made her feel she was the wrong gender . It may not relate exactly to what you say about your DC but it is worth reading.

lacroicsz.substack.com/p/by-any-other-name?utm_source=url

Hi OP lots of great advice on this thread. The school have done the right thing in informing you, but the flippant nature of the email suggests the tutor and probably the school do not fully understand what social transition is and how once a child is on the train they can't get off. As other posters have said I can echo at our school, most girls start of as bi(sexual), then come out as non binary then trans. Usually they are just lesbians so you will get two girls who say they are boys in a relationship.

Social transition follows the affirmative approach and almost always leads to further transition.

Watchful waiting is the alternative. I think it will be helpful to send some of the resources from Transgender Trend and Safe Schools Alliance to your school, specifically to the tutor, safeguarding lead and head of RSE.
Here are some useful links:
www.transgendertrend.com/schools-resources/

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/resources-2/factsheets/

As others have said if your child gets distressed or threatens self harm if you don't agree then see this as a red flag. I think you can block certain keywords via your internet provider so this will stop him or her accessing material that is effectively grooming.

Peer pressure is massive. My daughter is 14 and a lesbian. She was hanging out with her girlfriend's friends of whom two were trans, and one was non binary. When she spoke to each of them individually about how harmful transitioning can be they all agreed with her, but as a group they denied these views. This is not something to be taken lightly and if your child is your daughter it really is troubling.

This is a good film for you to watch which shows the social contagion of non binary and trans ideology and how insidious it is.

@GoingtoGlasgow

I know your child has said they want to be non-binary, not the opposite sex, but there are quite a few parents whose children start with non-binary and then progress.

This is an extremely interesting and persuasive article written by a clinical psychologist about the pitfalls of childhood social transition and why it's so dangerous.

It will certainly give you an argument as to why you don't want it to happen, and might be something that you could show the school.

I certainly think most people reading it will instantly grasp the issue.

www.transgendertrend.com/childhood-social-transition/

First of all, I would suggest that you DON'T give permission for pronoun or name change at this stage. She only just started having these feelings in the last what - week? few days? There is no other issue I can think of where school/adults would suggest moving so quickly. E.g. "I want to drop Geography/cut my long hair off/move schools/stop living at Mum's and move to Dads". In all of these situations, the adult involved would listen, but then advise to wait a while and see if they still feel the same way next week/month. This is no different. There's no rush to change pronouns, no benefit to doing it sooner rather than later (and possibly active disadvantages of doing it early). Plus, it's really hard for young people to change their minds back from a name change: everyone cheers along when they decide they want to be called Aero/Delta/Whatever, but it's then really hard to go back and ask all the teachers to call them Katie again. Much easier to just have friends use whatever name they choose, so that if/when they change back, it can happen more organically.

Also, I suggest you make sure your child is clear on what "gender-affirming surgery" is, and what it can and can't achieve. It's basically like changing your nose to make it look like an ear. However it might look on the outside, you still can't hear with it, and you probably can't smell with it anymore either.

Specific things I would want my child to know:

1. Surgery is limited: It cannot create the biological functions of the opposite sex, so male body can't produce eggs/have periods/give birth, and female bodies can't produce sperm/get erections.
2. Surgery is risky: high risk of failure, complications, further surgeries need to correct mistakes, even death
3. Surgery is invasive, painful and limited:

If you can break down the "people can have surgery to change sex" and explain what it all really entails, you may well find that she takes stock of the path that she is preparing to take.

There always have been fads and fashions, and teenagers have always been the ones more likely to copy friends.
A hair-style of clothing trend will usually pass, but for good reason we try to stop them having, for example, a slogan tatooed on their faces. We don't allow them to marry or have sex officially till 16, and have rules about drinking and about taking a driving test or joining the army, all limited by age-rules.
It is known human brains are demonstrably different before maturing, and normally not able to use adult judgement till 25, so the argument could be made for that as the age of becoming adult.

I don't think this was the best episode of this podcast but there are loads of others with expert speakers

player.captivate.fm/episode/575c8a8d-e464-4de6-a5f4-92dc3718cf85

rogdmum

Thank you for all your posts. I learn more from them every time.

And thank you for posting the fuller picture on that guidance. I can see just how some people choose not to post it. The reality is that this is never ‘clear cut’ even with supposedly ‘simply’ using new names and pronouns.

Despite many people trying to imply that it is simple, and clear cut. Considering the degree of poor mental health I have witnessed around these identities, absolutely nothing is simple if a child ( and they are still children) feels they cannot go back.

TBF, while the GIDS guidance does not call social transition a psychiatric treatment or one that should only be done under medical supervision, it does say rather more than the two sentences above and warns of possible difficulties in backtracking once a trans identity is adopted:

“ It is important to be supportive, where you can, about your child exploring their gender identity. It is also important to consider how you can do this without rejecting the possibility of their current identity changing in the future. This may seem very unlikely indeed for some young people. However, others have told us how hard it was to further explore their identities, or consider transitioning back, once they and other people had fought so hard for them to be able to express themselves in a certain way.”

gids.nhs.uk/parents-and-carers

"At GIDS we do not take a position on early social transition, either for or against. Whether a child formally transitions is a decision that families and children make together."

Also this just out by Genspect might be useful

genspect.org/guidance-on-social-transition/

I would also nod along with the school because I’ve heard some horror stories of social services getting involved if you don’t

I’m going to respectfully disagree here and say that having been through this exact scenario, if I were able to back in time, I would still not nod along with the school using anything other than sex based pronouns. Social transition (which is what a change of pronouns is part of) is a psycho social intervention and schools are not qualified to make the decision whether or not to support it.

Our experience with social services (after our daughter’s school said we had put our daughter at the threshold for child protection) was that our social worker understood the safeguarding issues around what the school was doing and fully supported us. This was over a year ago, and there is more information out there now that parents can point to about the risks of social transition and the importance of working with parents. The fact that your school has actually contacted you to ask for your view is positive- as pointed out by other posters, often schools will adopt a change of pronouns and/or name without informing parents which creates a whole new set of problems.

I would go back to the school and ask for time so that you can properly discuss the issue with your child and get independent advice. Then do your research- the links mentioned earlier and ask here for anything else as this forum is a great source of info.

Laura Edwards-Leeper tweeted a few months ago re the interaction between schools and parents. She’s the Chair of the Child and Adolescent Committee for WPATH and so a hard one for schools who ever towards gender ideology to ignore.

twitter.com/drlaurael/status/1463351438298337283?s=21

And OP. Watch out for binders is your child is female. They get them delivered to friends places on their behalf.

And you will always, always get adults who think it is just like wearing a ‘sports bra’ so nothing to worry about.

But, of course there are many concerns about wearing binders and they are usually legitimate. If a girl cannot do sports in their binder, as sports teachers have told us on Mn, then they are of course, nothing like a sports bar. And it is ridiculous to assert they are in that case.

Sorry wolves I didn’t mean to sound like I was admonishing you. That was not my intention at all.

You do realise that treating children as fully fledged, mature adults who need no guidance whatsoever is partly how we are where we are? Would you have this stance on literally any other topic than gender identity? Dealing with lots of money? Having sex? Health issues? Exposure to violence/porn/extreme political ideology? Personal boundaries and consent? Anything? Or is it just this where it’s entirely up to the child and nothing whatsoever to do with their parents (at the age of 11/12)?

I know right? Why is there even a need for parents anymore? Just to provide a place to live and fund them?

@rhowton I'm glad mine never fell into it or just seem to miss due to their age
But they did say lots were pushing it at school
I think we need to make it clear you cannot change your biological sex
A biological man cannot have a baby
It seems we compare feelings of people being trans but not that of women
If someone wants to be known as a man thats fine , but you cannot say a man can give birth
All the non binary I just don't get either , it seems to be a worrying trend at the moment

*I have two friends where they found out the school changed enrollment without them, the parents, knowledge.

I've heard of this a number of times but I don't understand how those schools don't face serious consequences.*

What name do schools use when they contact the parents or write reports or at parents evening? It's really not something they can successfully keep secret from parents for long so it's really idiotic to go down that route.