Email from teacher: Child has come out as non binary

It really is enlightening to see this 'fervour' elements.

I mean, I think some posters think they have an angle that has never been tried before to enlighten the 'dinosaurs'. It is quite something to behold it coming through post after post, across different threads. I think it might be one of the usual TRAs buzzing us to 'liven' things up. Isn't that what one of them said not so long ago before they disappeared again?

Also Lekisa658 doesn't make your head spin, and don't you realise what it makes you look like, when you use homosexuality and one breath to beat women over the head, saying that transphobia is exactly the same as homophobia, and then in the next breath, deny that homosexuality even exists?

It should, but self awareness is never a quality posters like this possess in abundance.

This has likely been posted earlier but as our brand new to Mumsnet poster is busy keeping this thread bumped, here's an insightful and rather chilling piece about the terrible psychological consequences for children when they are socially affirmed as the opposite sex and then reach puberty:
www.transgendertrend.com/childhood-social-transition/

Well worth sharing with teachers and schools.

The features that sexual attraction is based on can be changed. So if changing those features isn't changing sex, then sexual attraction isn't based on sex.

Really? I like dicks. I really cannot see how any adult would ever believe that a dick can ever be replaced by a phalloplasty device. And frankly, any person who is saying that is absolutely phobic and hateful in my book. And determined to gaslight me or even worse, call me hateful because I won't have sex with anyone of my choosing if they did not have a dick.

Maybe YOUR sexual attraction is not based on sex. You are a fool to say that you represent other people outside your own bubble though.

This is just transphobic psychological abuse, and an attempt to repress your child. It's no different than telling a gay teenager “But by the way, you'll always be seen as a sexual deviant and will never be able to have children.”

Wonderful stuff you are posting here today.

So, YOU are posting that a same sex attracted person is a 'sexual deviant'. Is that what you really think? and you are projecting that on to others?

Or... is that what your deep prejudice is ascribing to posters here, some of whom are same sex attracted and have children that are same sex attracted. Because in your deeply prejudiced trench you can only come up with another false comparison.

And despite the continued forced teaming, I don't believe that homosexuality is comparative to being 'trans' at all. Why do you think that?

I will continue to wait for those links though.

I will repeat my request:

Could you please link us up to the studies and the peer reviewed statistics that show exactly how many of our children will remain trans and non-binary into adulthood? And even further, it middle age?

Could you please show us the current diagnosis tools to tell the difference between a child or a teen experimenting and trying to conform to their peers vs one that will not desist?

Would you like to link up the studies from the past 18 months l that show that affirming only care is right and appropriate for all children and teens who are declaring they have a trans or non-binary identity?

Particularly those links to the numbers of just how many children and teens persist in their trans and non-binary identity into adulthood and beyond. Plus correlate that with the way that any parent can tell that their child is going to be one of those who persist.

And any evidence at all that suggests that a parent saying ‘ ok, I hear you. Let’s work with this for a while to see how best to approach it. Buy by the way, you cannot actually change sex, you will always be the sex you were born.’ And not immediately affirming only is causing harm to that child.

Please make sure that particular study is peer reviewed.

Decades of child developmental psychology have led to the understanding that identity develops alongside mental, intellectual, emotional, physical etc development, and in response to interaction with the wider world. It's fluid before maturity.
'Gender identity ideology' takes full advantage of that plus the neuroplasticity of children's and teen brains.
I am a mum (adult human female parent, who protects her DDs from gender ideology) and will stand up to the education system (and anyone) that supports it, and potentially cause either short term confusion and emotional distress or long-term harm to our children.

[quote Lekisa658]@Goatsaregreat
“Trans issues should be irrelevant to Year 7 children who should be focusing on learning, growing, peer relationships, hobbies, playing sport, being a daughter, sister and family member and all the rest.

Adults insistent on sexualising children (...) are the problem.”

How are you any different from a homophobe using this exact argument against accepting gay children?[/quote]

Calling me a homophobe is just an attempt to silence views that you have no arguments against. As it happens I came out as a lesbian in my late teens and have navigated life as a lesbian mother. It is not homophobic to challenge adults using children for their own ends. I'm also a safeguarding 'expert' and know a lot about adult grooming, adults weaponising children and the lengths that dodgy adults will go to access children.
Children need to grow and develop free from these toxic influences. Parents are watching what is evidently social contagion amongst teenage girls.

There is nothing homophobic about stating that.

Also Lekisa658 doesn't make your head spin, and don't you realise what it makes you look like, when you use homosexuality and one breath to beat women over the head, saying that transphobia is exactly the same as homophobia, and then in the next breath, deny that homosexuality even exists?

And also, all of this is for them to explore, not you. Children aren't your property. Stop trying to dictate what others "should" be.

Children should be left to deal with sex, sexuality, preferences, etc? And parents should stay away?

I don't think so. But very revealing of your attitude towards safeguarding.

By your definition of sex, "sex-based attraction" does not exist. People are attracted to external physical features, which are changeable, not to gametes or chromosomes.

Haha! Of course it exists, and it's a protected characteristic by law.

And yes, you can try and disguise your sex to convince people that you are the opposite sex.

I am with @TheCurrywurstPrion, I think your child is probably just exploring identity and just wants some control. I would be fine with teachers using them pronouns because with nothing to rebel against I think it likely not to be hugely long lived, and because if it was my child I would want them to Derek ownership of their identity. I would not though be allowing any surgical or medical intervention or breast binding etc at this age, or and when significantly older I would only countenance it with proper unbiased counselling.

I would also want to explore what education is happening at school and be having discussions about why biological sex is also important and why being a woman (assuming your dc is a biological girl) is something to be proud of.

[quote Lekisa658]@Ereshkigalangcleg
“Lesbians are biologically female people who are attracted exclusively to other biologically female people. It's a same sex attraction.”

By your definition of sex, "sex-based attraction" does not exist. People are attracted to external physical features, which are changeable, not to gametes or chromosomes.[/quote]
I'm sorry if within your bubble this is considered some sort of intelligent 'gotcha' but out here in the real world what you've posted here is utter nonsense. The fact is that people know the difference between the sexes. We know when someone is a man or a woman based on a multitude of factors. It's not just external physical features, though they absolutely factor. Humans are sexually dimorphic and from puberty onwards our bodies change so that our sex is distinctive through looks alone. But we also smell different, sound different and move our bodies entirely differently. To the degree that humans can deduce sex extremely accurately just by looking at point of light footage of people walking. We can't accurately deduce if the person is walking towards us or away but we can determine sex. Women are somewhat better at this than men but even men can almost always tell when someone is male or female. It's an important part of our evolutionary abilities.

People who are exclusively attracted to only one sex know when a person is that sex and when they aren't. They will never, ever, ever be capable of experiencing attraction to someone of the sex they aren't attracted to. Anyone who is genuinely physically attracted to both sexes, even if it's just one person ever from one of those sexes, even if that person presents themselves as the opposite gender, is bisexual.

The features that sexual attraction is based on can be changed. So if changing those features isn't changing sex, then sexual attraction isn't based on sex.

The "Mr Potato Head" model of sexual attraction here. Just stick some breasts on a potato, and cut a hole in it, what more could a heterosexual man or lesbian ask for?

Make a woman grow a beard and get a croaky voice? What gay man or straight woman could resist?

(I would actually be interested in some serious sexological research to see how common attraction to hormone-modified individuals is, specifically. How many people are there who would be specifically attracted to women and modified men, but not unmodified men? I think it's vanishingly uncommon, but I could be wrong).

I must say, I'm rather enjoying the hotheaded, prolific, multi-threaded fervency with which our young believer is pummelling out those bingo points.

You can say it as many times as you like. People have sexual orientations. They are either:

Opposite sex attracted
Same sex attracted
Bisexual
Asexual

If you are knowingly attracted to members of both sexes you are bisexual, however you slice it. A man (gender identity irrelevant) who looks like a woman isn't a woman. And vice versa. Even if you can't tell without clothes off.

Besides, the amount of trans people who can genuinely pass as the opposite sex in real life without filters and photoshop is vanishingly small.

Btw you don't need to inspect chromosomes to tell what sex people are

Distinct from the waffling, sinister middle-aged type of TRA we get. The young ones have got the bright shiny zeal of youth, furiously delivering the script, no attempt at nuance whatsoever. I hope they come out the other side of it.

Sex based attraction is just that

You can try and mask your sex , it takes a lot of effort and money to be convincing , and when it's unmasked the attraction will most likely vanish

And if the person still finds you sexually attractive that says something about thier sexuality

How utterly horrid of you to pretend otherwise

Sexual attraction is not based on sex, because no one needs to inspect someone's gametes or chromosomes before experiencing attraction.

The features that sexual attraction is based on can be changed. So if changing those features isn't changing sex, then sexual attraction isn't based on sex.

Adults weaponising 11/ 12 year old children like this are the problem.

I never read these posters as adults. Maybe students, but no older than 22 or so. Come here to tell the old Karens what's what.

Yes sex based attraction does exist because female people are one of the only two sexes, regardless of individual ability or desire to produce any gametes and reproduce. Male people are the other. See how that "bi" thing works again?

@Helleofabore
“Buy by the way, you cannot actually change sex, you will always be the sex you were born.”

This is just transphobic psychological abuse, and an attempt to repress your child. It's no different than telling a gay teenager “But by the way, you'll always be seen as a sexual deviant and will never be able to have children.”

@Ereshkigalangcleg
“Lesbians are biologically female people who are attracted exclusively to other biologically female people. It's a same sex attraction.”

By your definition of sex, "sex-based attraction" does not exist. People are attracted to external physical features, which are changeable, not to gametes or chromosomes.

So why are you trying to convince trans and non-binary children to stop being trans or non-binary?

And way to demonise people, many of whom are parents dealing this this very issue on a daily basis. People are discussing sources of information about care, and giving advice usually based on actual experience (not based on some theory from someone who seems to be well entrenched in pushing their political agenda).

I still look forward to those links.

Particularly the links to the numbers of just how many children and teens persist in their trans and non-binary identity into adulthood and beyond. Plus correlate that with the way that any parent can tell that their child is going to be one of those who persist.

And any evidence at all that suggests that a parent saying ‘ ok, I hear you. Let’s work with this for a while to see how best to approach it. Buy by the way, you cannot actually change sex, you will always be the sex you were born.’ And not immediately affirming only is causing harm to that child.

Please make sure that particular study is peer reviewed.

Also, non-binary lesbians exist

Female people who identify as non binary and are exclusively attracted to other female people exist, yes. The "non binary" bit is irrelevant.

People who think they don't have a male/female "gender" and are only attracted to "woman gendered" people? What do you think "lesbian" actually means?

Lesbians are biologically female people who are attracted exclusively to other biologically female people. It's a same sex attraction. If they are also attracted to biological males of whatever "gender", it's called bisexuality. Bi= two/both. There are no other sexes.

A very long time ago I was a teenager. I can remember thinking all sorts of really crazy things. Guess what? I grew out of them. Looking back, life was easier for me because there was no internet, no social media, no chat rooms where others persuade you that because you wear jeans or have short hair or feel different then you are non-binary or trans. That is the problem here, it's almost like a mass hysteria where young people get sucked into thinking and can't get out.
Yes, I understand that some people are trans or whatever, just like some people I grew up with are gay/bisexual, but I know others who said they were and then realized it was just a phase. They were exploring and having explored wanted to take things no further. And that is, I think, the message. Take your time and don't do anything that can't be reversed.