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Original poster

Would you say anything?

85 replies

fghjk · 26/02/2022 02:23

My DD is 7 and what I can only describe as a VERY young 7 due to missing so much school over the last couple of years. She came home today and told me she learned about 'men who love men' - fine - and "men who become girls". Confused

Men can become girls?

Yeah? The teacher said we can just get surgery when we're older. So I can be a boy if I want to. They just told us to talk to our parents. Can I be a boy?

Why do you need to be a boy? I thought you were a tomboy? Why wouldn't you want to be a girl? Girls can do whatever boys can do etc etc.

On and on, back and forth (I'm sure some posters will recognise this).

I went through it with her older sister when she came home aged 10 and attempted to "educate" me. She knows what is what now, but that was a week of non-stop discussion I had no idea was happening until it happened. She thought sex and gender were interchangeable. She thought it was "a feeling". She could not understand why women needed their own spaces and it took telling her about my own experiences (which I didn't really want to do) to convince her.

But... seven? SEVEN?

What adult in their right mind tells a seven year old they can have their genitals removed when they grow up? (Did they mention how many of these surgeries are actually done successfully, I wonder? Highly doubt it!)

I really want to ask if this is actually what happened and this was actually what she was told. Can I? Should I? I realise that would out me as a TERF, but at this stage I honestly don't care? I genuinely believe if she HAS to have this education then there are age appropriate ways to give it which doesn't involve seven year olds being told they can chop off their genitals (or have ones stitched on?!) when they grow up -- they just need to ask mummy and daddy first.

Or am I completely overreacting and this is just the way they're being educated these days? Sad We are in Scotland where apparently the government believes 4 year olds should have their pronouns respected... so I don't even know if this was the teacher either majorly fucking up, or furthering her own agenda, or if this is actually the curriculum these days?

I'm just seriously annoyed that yet again there was no warning and it's putting ideas into young heads that A) they can't even understand and B) really does not matter. It feels like they're being indoctrinated into a religion I don't believe in and (certainly in my eldest's case) being taught that non-believers are wrong and going to hell.

She's always been a bit of a 'tomboy'... into football, all her friends are boys, paw patrol for years and hasn't ever looked twice at a barbie. But even at five, she was the one trying to explain to her ten year old sister who came home full of the gender nonsense that "girls can like boy stuff - it doesn't make them boys!!" and now, one sex education lesson later, she thinks she's a bloody boy. And she can just get surgery when she's older to make her a boy 'for real' 😧.

Does anyone have some practical advice on what I can do?

OP posts:
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MidsomerMurmurs · 28/02/2022 13:47

Well done so far OP.

Gotta laugh that MN are full of "Get the tories out!!" threads when they are literally THE ONLY option available to Scottish people who are gender critical
Yep. I mean you could vote Alba I guess but that’s a no from me.

Original poster
fghjk · 28/02/2022 12:53

Minor update:

No word yet from the school but my complaint was quite long and in-depth and I asked a total of seven questions (all of which require them to send me further information) so I wasn't expecting anything so soon.

I received a response to my placing request at the local RC school saying they were full (no surprise there) so I'm currently gathering the required docs so she can be added to the waiting list. No point moving my eldest as she's in P7 and managed to come to her own conclusions after I gave her the actual definitions of sex and gender, explained why I believe gender is a set of stereotypes often directly harmful to women and girls and why we should ignore them, and gave her my own personal experiences as reasons why women need sex based rights and protections.

Asking my rapist if he could pause for a minute so I could explain how I actually identify as a demiboy would not have made him reconsider raping me nor would it have made him feel demigay - a fact so simple that even a ten year old can understand it.

I didn't really want to have those kinds of conversations with her at ten but I felt strong-armed by the school. Now they're forcing me to have them with my seven year old. I absolutely refuse.

So I have emailed my local Tory councillor who also happens to be a member of the Education, Children and Families Committee.

I explained the situation, included the complaint I sent, and advised that the local RC school are full and if I can't get her a space then I feel the only option is to pull her out and homeschool her (which would be detrimental for many reasons).

He responded within the hour!

Gotta laugh that MN are full of "Get the tories out!!" threads when they are literally THE ONLY option available to Scottish people who are gender critical Sad

He agreed with me (in what I sensed was a carefully measured way so he can't be dragged through the mud as a transphobe - clever laddie Grin), asked me to please forward the schools response and said he will "get a response from the education department to see if the lessons are being delivered appropriately".

I thanked him but pressed the point about needing support to move her schools. I said:

Could you also ask the education department if there can be priority given to school placement requests after incidents like the one highlighted?

As far as I’m concerned this is very similar to Catholic children getting priority at RC schools because it aligns with their core beliefs and values.

Hopefully I’m wording this in a way that makes sense but I feel like both of my children have been “indoctrinated” into a set of beliefs as opposed to educated on them in a balanced and factual way, and I feel like I have a right to send my child to a school where they will not be “indoctrinated” without my consent or at the very least some prior warning so I can prepare for it and decide to withdraw them? I would feel the same if they were teaching any religion, political stance, or conspiracy theory like ‘flat earth’ as if it were uncontested fact without alternatives.

I’m currently in the process of gathering the docs needed for St X to put her on the waitlist, but I’m worried this could take months or years without input from the council / Education Department.

I think the school system might be different in England so for full context: in Scotland we have two types of state schools, faith schools (mostly RC) and non denominational. She attends the non denominational school and I have the right to remove her from religious observation. If she was a Catholic I would have the right to send her to the RC school where religious observation would be part of her education. So I believe the same type of logic should apply in my right to pull her out of a school who are teaching any kind of belief based system as if it were fact and place her into another one which either isn't or has my consent to do so?

But maybe that's a bit of stretch and I'm totally open to hearing other people's thoughts on it.

OP posts:
Original poster
fghjk · 28/02/2022 12:18

You're not wrong OP. They are being indoctrinated into a religion. We are in the middle of what will one day become one of the biggest scandals of all time.

I agree and that's exactly what this feels like!

OP posts:
Phobiaphobic · 28/02/2022 09:43

You're not wrong OP. They are being indoctrinated into a religion. We are in the middle of what will one day become one of the biggest scandals of all time.

DomesticatedZombie · 27/02/2022 12:17

Primary school had a parents eve to discuss rshp and secondary sent out notification and invite to discuss. Don't assume you'll be written off- schools have a duty to listen to parents and consider different views. Sex ed has always been a delicate balance due to various factors like religion and strong personal views

DomesticatedZombie · 27/02/2022 12:15

Note the widely derided Scotgov guidance on transgender issues was advisory. Individual schools and heads will have different angles and ime most are pretty sensible. A few may use bad resources out of ignorance (some twinkl stuff is horrendous) and an even smaller amount will actually be supportive of unscientific and highly questionable ideas such as sex being a spectrum. Well worth raising issues, asking questions and checking resources.

Barrawarra · 27/02/2022 12:01

Also in Scotland and keep fretting about what I will do when this day comes. I have already given a few messages to DD who is 6 to prepare but I know the school has at least one non binary member of staff and I can imagine the school will be defensive and protective, based on other experiences with them. I think what would hearten me in your situation is knowing that there will be many parents who agree with you, it is just hard to publicly talk about it. But this is changing. Good for you standing up.

Tiredoftiers · 27/02/2022 10:42

I’d be asking why the school has clearly strayed so far from the rshp curriculum.

The curriculum seems okayish when reading. Your dd is 7 which I’m guessing means p3, or a very young P4 which puts them in first level of the curriculum. Transgender is covered briefly in level 2 which is p5.
I would be making my complaint on these grounds.

OperationDessertStorm · 27/02/2022 08:36

If it was a religious organisation or religious teacher pushing this stuff (like the Catholic Church or the scientologists or the Jehovah’s Witnesses) then the papers and the government would be ripping them to bits.

Just because it’s got a pretty rainbow on it these ‘teachers’ get a free pass

FannyCann · 27/02/2022 08:26

OP I'd be fuming. I'd actually say A LOT.

You could print off this article and take it in with you to confront the head/head of PSHE about the reality of young girls having double mastectomies because they have been told they can choose to be a boy.

Oh, and have a few words with other parents at the school gate too.

lilymaynard.com/wielding-the-sidhbh-gallagher/

NecessaryScene · 27/02/2022 07:55

That is the sexism at the heart of this.

And trying to explain it to children reveals it, because all the postmodern nonsense has to be stripped away, and all you're left with is the the rotten regressive core - the fundamental point that the children latch onto.

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 27/02/2022 07:32

Good work OP. This example highlights the core root of the problem and this might be something you want to add. That we have spent years telling girls they can do anything and they are not prevented from liking maths or engineering or climbing trees because they are a girl. Now this teacher has come along and said the opposite - if you like those things as a girl then actually it means you are a boy and need life altering surgery to become one. The teacher is saying girls cannot like maths or engineering or climbing trees. That is the sexism at the heart of this.

ValancyRedfern · 27/02/2022 07:10

Just seen your draft email plan. Looks good.

ValancyRedfern · 27/02/2022 07:08

The OP is in Scotland and the rules are different there. THe government is completely captured which does weaken her position in complaining. I absolutely think you should complain OP, but the sad fact is, however polite, politically correct, careful you are, there will be people who brand you a bigot. That's reason enough to not mince your words IMHO and go in full bore. I don't know if For Women Scotland have any resources around education? Worth looking at their website or contacting them.

FemaleAndLearning · 26/02/2022 23:20

Your draft email structure looks great OP.

My apologies for not knowing the Scottish system what is your equivalent of OFSTED if there is one?

DomesticatedZombie · 26/02/2022 22:38

@MidsomerMurmurs

1) the responses in this thread about Ofsted, Chairs of Governors, PSHE curriculum etc are a bit annoying. The OP has said she’s in Scotland. We have a different set of institutions here. And we have an utterly captured “government” led by Nicola (she/her) and a subservient and equally captured civil service.
  1. looking at the RSHP website, in the stages beyond “early” there are utterly contradictory statements, on the one hand saying that sex-based stereotypes are bad, but on the other parroting gender ideology with no rational reading other than that “gender” is directly linked to sex-based stereotypes.

I’ll search this forum but I wonder if anyone (FPFW?) has properly dissected the RSHP guidelines?

Not forensically; Ive not had time. I just check them for any egregious kak. As you know, we're not going to get away with zero mention of 'gender' as it's the ScotGov's favourite baffling pet project, so I am going on the basis that most of the info is okay, and innoculating my kids about the gender stuff pre-emptively.
Original poster
fghjk · 26/02/2022 22:04

Ahhh that makes sense Grin

OP posts:
TheChild · 26/02/2022 22:00

@fghjk

Not a teacher! Can I ask why you wanted me to confirm this? Grin
Sorry OP, was just typing a follow up confirming my post was to @autie not you, for spouting utter nonsense about education having to be "inclusive". Facts don't need to be inclusive, they just need to be FACTUAL, we shouldn't be teaching our children things that simply aren't true.

Unfortunately my quote tweet doesn't seem to work so my posts often make no sense Gin

Original poster
fghjk · 26/02/2022 21:55

Not a teacher! Can I ask why you wanted me to confirm this? Grin

OP posts:
TheChild · 26/02/2022 21:50

Please tell me you are not a teacher?

Original poster
fghjk · 26/02/2022 21:25

Thanks for all the help. I've typed something up and I'm just letting it simmer for a bit before sending.

I've framed this is as: Anger this was done, sadness at the effects and discussions it's caused, and a total loss of trust in the school's ability to safeguard my children and their wellbeing.

Because honestly that is how I feel.

I've said I hoped there had been a misunderstanding somewhere. (I'm not sure how misunderstood you'd have to be to tell a 7 year old she can chop her boobs off, but I mostly said that so I can absolutely take it further if I feel they're fobbing me off).

I did search the RSHP for their stage, and under both "Het and LGB" and "Boys and Girls" I found exactly what I expected and what I've always taught them. Men can love men, some families have two mums, boys and girls can cry, and boys and girls can be mechanics.

So I've asked them to refer me to the slide where it explains what a gender is, how you'd know if your gender was wrong, and the types of surgery available to correct it.

I've asked them to provide the materials if not included above.

What if any training the teachers had on the delivery of this material.

If they are engaged with any charities or organisations for guidance on resources, and who they are.

Why they've still not updated the mistake in the Equality Act

What - if anything - they intend to do about my concerns.

I wanted to add something about the new guidance but I wasn't sure how to word it without drawing attention to the fact the entire guidance appears to be 100% about affirmation - part of which would be... surgery! So I've left it out, despite wanting to know their stance on it so I can quiz them about the massive safeguarding failures / culture of secrecy it promotes. Are they going to apply it to my daughter who was happy on Thursday yet thinks she should be a boy because she likes football on Friday, or are they going to deal with these issues with common sense I don't fully believe they possess.

OP posts:
BloomingTrees · 26/02/2022 20:00

I absolutely would complain to the school.

I've already explained to my DC they can't change sex but as it's just as good to be a boy as a girl and vice versa it doesn't matter. Also they can like anything they want, it doesn't matter if it's seen as boy or girl things.

So far so good.

MidsomerMurmurs · 26/02/2022 19:43

  1. the responses in this thread about Ofsted, Chairs of Governors, PSHE curriculum etc are a bit annoying. The OP has said she’s in Scotland. We have a different set of institutions here. And we have an utterly captured “government” led by Nicola (she/her) and a subservient and equally captured civil service.

  2. looking at the RSHP website, in the stages beyond “early” there are utterly contradictory statements, on the one hand saying that sex-based stereotypes are bad, but on the other parroting gender ideology with no rational reading other than that “gender” is directly linked to sex-based stereotypes.

I’ll search this forum but I wonder if anyone (FPFW?) has properly dissected the RSHP guidelines?

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 26/02/2022 17:02

I would be absolutely furious and I would definitely speak to the school. I would ask to speak to the PSHE lead, the head teacher and complain to the governors.
I would get all the relevant resources from Safe Schools Alliance and Transgender Trend and lay it all out.

Good advice.

FemaleAndLearning · 26/02/2022 15:55

They maybe inadvertently causing future 'gender dysphoria'. Most girls don't have breasts at 7 so when they start budding they may react really bad to it. I just find it all so insidious.

OP don't waste your time research medical outcomes, as others have said go the curriculum guidelines. And remind them once again they are misrepresentating the EqAct 2010 if they are still using gender instead of sex. If they still don't change this then do a formal complaint (this will be on their website) and copy OFSTED in.

I had to do this recently when there was a rumour that a 6ft boy who is now called Jess was using the girls toilets and changing facilities. I just reminded them of the law. I was worried about doing this as one of my girls is SEND and the other hasn't attended school for 2 years, but there were no repercussions.
You are an engineer so it will be easy for you to craft a logical, factual letter.

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