Don’t bother applying for a job if you think people can’t change sex, NHS trust tells health official

I am not going to argue here about the reality or otherwise of gender identity. The point is that Tavistock supports it, and supports transgender people. It would never employ anyone who doesn't think trans women are women in any senior role, and that's a perfectly reasonable position.

To turn it around for people who think gender identity is akin to a religious belied, it's like the Church of England rejecting an application for a Bishop who is a Muslim.

It seems to depend heavily on socially constructed stereotypes which vary in space and time, for something supposedly innate. Eg football (soccer) is (according to various "how I knew I was trans accounts") girly in the US but not the U.K.

@DadJoke

So if, as you say, “gender identity” is real, is it a constant thing, regardless of historical period, geography, social class, ethnicity, age, etc?

And if this is the case, would a male Aborigine alive in 1850 have the same understanding of “gender identity” as a medieval farmer in Scotland or as a young woman currently growing up in Alaska or Mongolia?

It's related to specious statements like "95% of women also have autogynephilia as they are aroused by thinking of themselves as women having sex"

Note that the concept also incorporates the assertion that someone's false belief that they are/should be the opposite sex is the same as someone's knowledge that they are the sex they are.

This poster in particular seems to have a blind spot around this.

Firstly, not sure how many times it has to be said (I am sure the readers have picked it up though). There are already people with a huge range of views on this topic providing care at the Tavistock whether directly or in a supporting role. You don't seem to be able to acknowledge that. At all. Same old, same old, I guess.

Secondly, if a flat earther was the very best selection for a role, why does this matter? So..... on one hand you are angry about discrimination against trans people. And yet, you are very happy to discriminate against someone else who doesn't believe that transitioned males can ever be a female or be a woman.

That is nothing new. It is all part of the 'cancel culture' perpetuated by extremist trans activists. Well done. You are continuing that.

Thirdly, a 'flat earther' believes in a scientifically unsupported belief. True. You have tried a very nice sleight of hand here in twisting it that 'gender identity' is a scientifically supported belief.

What a shocker!!! That you would do such a thing.

Please, by all means supply the links that scientifically support gender identity. As it is being pushed today. Meaning that anyone can have one and it is not a mental health condition as it once was described.

As I have said before, I am looking forward to it.

PS: please do not post a blog post.

A belief in 'gender identity' seems to be a belief that someone can have an identity which conflicts with reality. How is this scientifically supported?

Note that the concept also incorporates the assertion that someone's false belief that they are/should be the opposite sex is the same as someone's knowledge that they are the sex they are.

Thus a male's "female gender identity" (rebadged gender dysphoria) is the same as a female's "female gender identity" (observation of reality).

You could maybe steel man it as "desire to be a particular sex", so a man can have a "female gender identity" (desire to be a woman). But then most women wouldn't have that - they'd be basically indifferent. A very few might. Hence the high number of non-binaries in female gender believers - they don't want to be a woman, so they logically conclude they don't have this (defined by males) "female gender identity".

I too would like a glimpse of “ the full range of GC beliefs”. Afaiac, it boils down to sex is real and immutable and the rest is a combo of fashion and personality -‘dress as you please, sleep with whoever’ll have you..’ as a woman wiser than me once said.

The only thing I agree on is that sex is fixed at conception. I'd be very interested in what other beliefs you have associated with me without permission.

A list might help. Thanks.

Surely it's the gender identity believers who should be compared to flat earthers.

Yes. It's just a DARVO. An unoriginal talking point for trans activists.

What is the 'full range of gender critical beliefs' out of interest

Id honestly love a definition

Preferably an official one but I’ll take one from a random poster on mumsnet

A belief in 'gender identity' seems to be a belief that someone can have an identity which conflicts with reality. How is this scientifically supported?

Surely it's the gender identity believers who should be compared to flat earthers.

Gender critical views (as a protected belief) as concluded by the Forstater appeal -

'The appeal was allowed after the appeal tribunal concluded the belief that "biological sex is real, important and immutable" (my bolds) met the legal test of a "genuine and important philosophical position", and "could not be shown to be a direct attempt to harm others." As such these beliefs were afforded protection under the Equality Act.'

What is the 'full range of gender critical beliefs' out of interest?

Besides, to suggest that 'gender identity ins't real' is a 'gc' belief is a bit of a stretch.

It's real in as much as any felt emotion/idea/thought is real.

There is a difference between that and material reality.

Sex is real, gender identity is real.

Okay, I can get on board with that. But the latter cannot and does not supersede or trump the former.

It's not just the belief that sex is immutable which is the issue, it's the full range of gender critical beliefs, and for someone who has the protected, if scientifically unsupported belief that gender identity isn't real to work for an organisation which is founded on that would be like offering a job in a NASA to a flat-Earther. Sex is real, gender identity is real.

She doesn't think trans women are women

Well, no. Why would she?

Very consistent helle

Correct.
Biology and its principles are FACTS.
Do you know HOW we know they are facts?
Because if all knowledge was wiped out tomorrow and the human race had to start again, we would still discover all the same things, come to all the same conclusions, get the same results to our investigations and prove the same things.
Facts don't change.

The same medical books would emerge in hundreds of years as there are now.
It's almost as if biology couldn't give a shiny shite about "feelings".

I also want to point out that as usual from DadJoke there is not mention of females. Especially the majority of the current cohort of young transitioners.

Quite consistent really.

Well it's still unadulterated shite being spouted. Last I heard biology was a science. Determined by the scientific method. Fine if you want to live in 1500s. I'll stay in 2022 thanks.

Yousuns are utterly deluded. What a strange world you inhabit.

Do you realise that currently clinicians and other staff already hold the view that a person does not change sex? And that transitioned males are not females and are not women, but are transitioned males who deserve the best health care to assist them with their dysphoria

Spot on

The 'usual gender critical screed' being that human beings cannot change sex?

I find it worrying that a medical establishment hires people who believe that human beings can change sex as it indicates a worrying lack of understanding of human biology and a lack of critical thinking skills in the face of a mass societal delusion.

As hellebore says above 'Do you realise that currently clinicians and other staff already hold the view that a person does not change sex? And that transitioned males are not females and are not women, but are transitioned males who deserve the best health care to assist them with their dysphoria?'