Don’t bother applying for a job if you think people can’t change sex, NHS trust tells health official

I think getting someone so entrenched in their belief that they speak for all trans people to do anything more than the weak deflection they have already attempted is very slim.

Imagine believing that the beliefs they have are what ALL trans people believe. And so therefore ONLY people also holding those beliefs can deliver high quality care.

For gender dysphoria.

So very enlightening to readers. Thanks djoke.

@Helleofabore

My "claim" is that it's prefectly reasonable for Tavistock not to appoint someone to be in charge of a gender identity clinic who doesn't think trans women are women and all the other stuff that goes with it.

I listed some gender critical beliefs which she shares because I was asked to. I'm addressing the OP. That's it.

I am under no obligation to discuss with you, on this thread, what my views on GC feminism are. So, stop pushing. You moving the goalposts around and putting words in my mouth will make no difference.

I want a definition of GC

I really don’t think its too much to ask

I pointed you at an article in which she expressed most of the usual talking points

Archive link for anyone who can't see the article.
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20210611091017/www.hsj.co.uk/workforce/working-with-stonewall-is-no-longer-compatible-with-nhs-values/7030259.article" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20210611091017/www.hsj.co.uk/workforce/working-with-stonewall-is-no-longer-compatible-with-nhs-values/7030259.article

It's an excellent article clearly stating the problems with nodding along with the TWAW narrative.

In addition, on her twitter feed you can see she say trans women are men,

Well, they are, aren't they? In order to be a transwomen you have to be male. An adult human male is a man, therefore transwomen are men.

trans women can't be lesbians,

Of course they can't. In order to be a lesbian you have to be a woman (adult human female) and transwomen are male. Also (do I have to state the obvious?) lesbians don't have penises.

opposing trans women in shop changing rooms,

No problem with them in the men's changing rooms along with all the other penis people.

defending conversion therapy,

Define what you mean by conversion therapy when discussing transgender people.

suggesting that transgender people are in fact "confused" gay people.

Many young lesbians who identify as trans seem to fit this description. Of course it doesn't apply to the middle aged heterosexual males who make up the other large cohort of trans people.

Right so you don’t know what the full range of GC beliefs are

Just what someone said on twitter

Awesome

In addition, on her twitter feed you can see she say trans women are men, trans women can't be lesbians, opposing trans women in shop changing rooms, defending conversion therapy, suggesting that transgender people are in fact "confused" gay people. Do I need to go on?

Actually, please do point to the studies that state categorically that all people who are trans think the same way.

You are right, DadJoke we have been around and around this before over different thread with you.

YOU, DadJoke, you have the belief that all trans people should follow what YOU personally believe.

Are you now telling us that all those other trans people who don't believe that transitioned males are females or women, or transitioned females are males or men. That believe that same 'sex' attraction is just that and irrelevant to gender. That transitioned males should not have access to female single sex spaces.

Do you actually listen to yourself DadJoke? Do you honestly think that all trans people believe the same things as you and that you are the designated spokesperson for trans people as a whole?

Please copy where they defend 'conversion therapy'? What do YOU call conversion therapy? And are you again stating (as I believe you have in the past) that treatment for mental health and other comorbidities before transition is 'conversion therapy'? Because that would be you going against the medical recommendations across the world for best trans health care.

And also clarify, do you think that clinicians who have identified that some homophobic parents are pressuring or manipulating their child to transition for their own purposes are lying? And do you think that clinicians reporting that some people who wish to transition do so out of homophobia? Do you deny that in some countries that this happens? Can you just as confidently deny that it doesn't happen in the UK? And then can you confidently tell us that the detransitioners who has stated that this played a part in their transition (and medical and surgical transition at that) are mistaken?

I am very eager to see how you deflect, or twist this. Because so far you have done nothing to support your claims except a bit of emotional manipulation and assurances that you are right using weak and irrelevant analogies.

In addition, on her twitter feed you can see she say trans women are men, trans women can't be lesbians, opposing trans women in shop changing rooms, defending conversion therapy, suggesting that transgender people are in fact "confused" gay people. Do I need to go on?

I've been through this on this forum before, and I'm not doing it again. The evidence is accepted by all major psychiatric and medical bodies, and there is no point in me doing 101 for you

What? You said there is a full range of gender critical beliefs

I am asking what they are

I’m not asking for you to argue that gender identity exists

That's a subscribe only link.

Could you link to any threads where 'you've been through it all before' please?

Here is her doing the talking points I mentioned.

www.hsj.co.uk/workforce/working-with-stonewall-is-no-longer-compatible-with-nhs-values/7030259.article

The point is that Tavistock supports it, and supports transgender people. It would never employ anyone who doesn't think trans women are women in any senior role

By the same token they should maybe also not employ people who do. It's exactly the same conflict of interest. The Tavistock is an NHS Trust, not a university LGBTSoc.

I imagine that DadJoke would want to give those transitioned male surgeons who have been saying...actually the WPATH guidelines for treating children are not actually really fit for purpose too. They also are up front in stating that sex cannot be changed. DadJoke would want them thrown out of their jobs.

Because... purity spirals....

How or why would a practicing Muslim become a Church of England Bishop? Whereas any qualified person can apply for this role.

They don't need to become a Bishop to be a senior employee of the Church of England. That is why that specific analogy is again fucking bollocks. (and I know you know that Eresh, I am just continuing your train of thought)

And again. There has been senior practitioners all around the world who don't believe that transitioned males or females become the sex they are being treated for. In fact, if any clinician actually believed that, they should be sacked due to their unscientific approach.

The point is that Tavistock supports it, and supports transgender people. It would never employ anyone who doesn't think trans women are women in any senior role, and that's a perfectly reasonable position.

And you are incorrect again. They have had senior staff that you (specifically you, DadJoke) would consider 'gender critical'. You can keep claiming it is not so. But it has been true historically. And it will be true again.

Because you seem to think that only those who fully believe in the same things as their patients and the people they serve are the best providers of health care. And you are fundamentally wrong on that.

They may be the ones inclined to simply give a patient what that patient wants... is that appropriate? No. But that is exactly where your scenario leads to. And I get it. It is straight out of that crazy manifesto that declared that transpeople get everything they want and can even experiment on themselves.

To turn it around for people who think gender identity is akin to a religious belied, it's like the Church of England rejecting an application for a Bishop who is a Muslim.

AT LAST! DadJoke is showing some honesty. It IS like a religious belief and is NOT supported by scientific evidence.

And by the way, the Church of England most likely has people of all religions working in senior administrative roles too. As long as they can do their job to the best of their ability. I know some churches that employ non-believers and they do just fine.

This discrimination is being fed by your own ideological thinking and you cannot admit it. Just own it. It is your interpretation of what people who don't believe transitioned males (or, by the way DadJoke, females) are actually the sex they are or that they become 'men' or 'women'.

However, you also seem to completely forget that those at the Tavistock are treating gender dysphoria. Which was a mental health issue and is now not based on anything but ideology.

Are you now telling us that gender dysphoria does not exist and is not the basis of trans health treatment? Is that right DadJoke? A small group of people simply turn up as ask for extreme cosmetic surgery and hormone treatment to 'get the look'? Is that what you are saying DadJoke?

Your analogies have all failed by the way. They are really old and weak.

I suspect that the answers about 'range of gender critical views' are not forthcoming...

I'll start you off
1: sex is fixed at conception.

You next.

It's good to hear TRAs clarify the situation. This is a movement founded on faith.

The NHS is (supposed to be) based on evidence, data and a scientific approach.

To turn it around for people who think gender identity is akin to a religious belied, it's like the Church of England rejecting an application for a Bishop who is a Muslim.

Wow.

As we discussed above, the Tavistock is supposed to be a medical service, funded by the NHS.

Not a religious organisation.

If it wants to be a religious organisation, that's fine, but it needs to leave the NHS. And it needs to stop performing treatment on children.

What is the 'full range of gender critical beliefs' out of interest

You may have missed this from an earlier poster dadjoke

I appreciate you are unable to argue that gender identity exists but you were the one bringing up ‘ the full range of gender critical beliefs’ so I’d imagine you know the answer

it's like the Church of England rejecting an application for a Bishop who is a Muslim.

How or why would a practicing Muslim become a Church of England Bishop? Whereas any qualified person can apply for this role.

So the comparison only holds if one's view is that GIDS is explicitly a church and not a clinic.

DadJoke may be correct about this situation in that it's a question of believers of a niche and highly unevidenced belief set discriminating against people who do not share the faith.

What isn't correct is that this is a desirable, sensible or even legally correct situation.

To turn it around for people who think gender identity is akin to a religious belied, it's like the Church of England rejecting an application for a Bishop who is a Muslim.

Well, that is an interesting perspective.

Indeed.

DadJoke.

Bollocks.

The Tavi is part of the NHS. It sees children who are confused about their gender identity. This confusion may have a variety of causes. Autism, internet influence, previous abuse, genuine gender dysphoria. Their job is to take a professional and dispassionate approach, and get to the bottom of what is causing the distress.

Years back their approach used to be "watchful waiting". Sounds about right. You really don't medical interventions unless you are certain and have no alternatives.

Are you really a dad? Of daughters?

I am not going to argue here about the reality or otherwise of gender identity

Yes we all understand why you wouldn't want to try and argue that.

'Woman' by the way is a term referring to adult human female's not gender - that would be 'feminine'