Don’t bother applying for a job if you think people can’t change sex, NHS trust tells health official

As for whether a "TRA" isn't appropriate, are you thinking of anyone in particular?

Someone with gender critical views who doesn't even believe gender identity is a real thing is an entire inappropriate person to do this.

So is a TRA. Who have criticised the Tavistock on numerous occasions for their approach. As have organisations like Mermaids.

"Just like any statement that affirming only treatment is the best trans care. That is an out and out lie and papers from clinicians active in the field are stating that it is not appropriate as a blanket treatment. "

This appears to be a reference to Tavistock, so I will take it. No, "affirming only" is absolutely not their approach. Read.

"

Whilst we would never attempt to change a child or young person’s gender identity or sexual orientation, we acknowledge that a child or young person’s perceived gender identity or sexual orientation may change or develop during the time that they are with our service. This may be so even when at any one time they feel very sure that their identity or orientation is fixed.

For this reason we discuss collaboratively with young people and families the many possible identities and outcomes that their futures may hold in store. We think carefully with young people and parents about informed consent and we see our role in helping young people to make their own sense of who they are and what their priorities might be. This can sometimes include sensitively asking constructively challenging questions. Our supportive and neutral stance is affirmative towards however a young person has come to understand themselves (and however they will do so in the future) without seeking to confirm, reject, or impose upon them any of the options which are available."

Someone with gender critical views who doesn't even believe gender identity is a real thing is an entire inappropriate person to do this.

gids.nhs.uk/gender-identity-and-sexuality

No one in the NHS denies the reality of primary and secondary sexual characteristics, but they also acknowledge that gender identity, like sexuality, is established.

They "acknowledge" that because they are Stonewall members and have been lobbied hard at all levels.

the science of gender identity is well-established and accepted by psychiatric and medical bodies.

No. It is not.

The science of gender dysphoria may have been getting some solid foundations.

You keep talking about gender identity. If you cannot provide the evidence to support it, and you have not in the past either, readers can see that all you have is repeating the same thing over and over. But each repetition doesn’t change the fact that what you say is false.

Just like any statement that affirming only treatment is the best trans care. That is an out and out lie and papers from clinicians active in the field are stating that it is not appropriate as a blanket treatment.

We can keep refuting your repetitions with our own. That is how unsubstantiated arguments that are not based on science work.

If you would like, we can post the evidence. I know you have had them posted for your review before. But we will keep pointing out that you are advocating discrimination in the work place based on an extremist ideological position that NOT ALL trans people share.

And ignoring that senior positions around the world are already held in gender clinics by both clinicians and other staff that hold the views that YOU say are not worthy of employment.

And you have not defined what you consider‘conversion therapy’. Yet accuse this person of it.

No one in the NHS denies the reality of primary and secondary sexual characteristics, but they also acknowledge that gender identity, like sexuality, is established. There's even a code for it in the NHS database.

Code Description
1 Male (including trans man)
2 Female (including trans woman)
3 Non-binary
4 Other (not listed)
Z

Not Stated (PERSON asked but declined to provide a response)

www.datadictionary.nhs.uk/attributes/gender_identity_code.html

risefromyourgrave

Im so pleased he is happy and settled (and enjoying himself)

My son went to the Tavistock, at the time he had gender dysphoria. Thank fuck that there was at least one person there who didn’t immediately think ‘this boy is actually a girl and we must make him into one ASAP’. No, he talked to and counselled my son, helped him to recognise his internalised homophobia and actually helped him.

He saved my son from a life of medicalised misery, 3 years later and he is at university, dating boys and girls and being happily bisexual. I will always be grateful to that GIDS employee, and they could do with many more like him. Especially as he left at about the same time my son was discharged.

That's great to hear

risefromyourgrave

. It sounds like your son got the balanced care he needed.

it's what Tavistock and the NHS believe

"The NHS" employs over a million people, some of them are regular posters in FWR. There is no one belief. I expect most NHS staff are not really thinking about it all that much.

If trans women are women what does the trans bit refer to

Because you seem to think that only those who fully believe in the same things as their patients and the people they serve are the best providers of health care. And you are fundamentally wrong on that.

They may be the ones inclined to simply give a patient what that patient wants... is that appropriate? No. But that is exactly where your scenario leads to. And I get it. It is straight out of that crazy manifesto that declared that transpeople get everything they want and can even experiment on themselves.

YY.

They don't believe "men are women", they believe that trans women are women and trans men are men.

What is the definition of a transwoman?

They don't believe "men are women", they believe that trans women are women

There is zero difference.

They don't believe "men are women", they believe that trans women are women and trans men are men

No, they don't.

They may pretend to, but that is only because they are petrified of losing their jobs.

Nobody really thinks this, not even you.

If you need to read a 101on it, I recommend an Introduction to Behavioral Science in Medicine. I'm not interested in arguing it on this thread.

Of course you're not. It is utter tripe.

I didn't offer to define GC for you

I realise that now 😩

they believe that trans women are women and trans men are men.

It's a view that the NHS and Tavistock share

Good god, is this true? Can you show me where the NHS says that males are females and females are males, please?

It's a view that the NHS and Tavistock share, and the science of gender identity is well-established and accepted by psychiatric and medical bodies. But, regardless of whether you think it's a religious belief or not, it's what Tavistock and the NHS believe that matters.

If you need to read a 101on it, I recommend an Introduction to Behavioral Science in Medicine. I'm not interested in arguing it on this thread.

My son went to the Tavistock, at the time he had gender dysphoria. Thank fuck that there was at least one person there who didn’t immediately think ‘this boy is actually a girl and we must make him into one ASAP’. No, he talked to and counselled my son, helped him to recognise his internalised homophobia and actually helped him.

He saved my son from a life of medicalised misery, 3 years later and he is at university, dating boys and girls and being happily bisexual. I will always be grateful to that GIDS employee, and they could do with many more like him. Especially as he left at about the same time my son was discharged.

That serves my point - it's reasonable for Tavistock not to employ someone who doesn't believe that the transgender patients they serve in the gender identity clinic have a pseudo-religious belief.

If believing a man is a woman if he says he is isn't a pseudo-religious belief, what is it? It's certainly not a fact.

What is it that you believe makes someone transgender? It's not based on science, therefore it's a belief system which bears a lot of similarity to a religious belief.

I said she exhibited gender critical views, pointed you at an article she wrote in which she explained them, and then listed a bunch more from her social media feed. She says she's gender critical.

That serves my point - it's reasonable for Tavistock not to employ someone who doesn't believe that the transgender patients they serve in the gender identity clinic have a pseudo-religious belief.

By all means argue the point, but you'll have to find a definition of gender critical elsewhere - perhaps start a thread on it?

You moving the goalposts around

And no one is moving any goalposts. We are responding to your statements. Statements you have made.

That you cannot/decline to answer questions that relate to your statements is your own issue. And on this thread, probably an own goal really.

Oops

Because you seem to be under the illusion that you are a spokesperson for all trans people and that some trans people actually don’t agree with you.

Is

Because you seem to be under the illusion that you are a spokesperson for all trans people and ignore that some trans people actually don’t agree with you.

I am not putting words in your mouth. I am asking for clarification.

Because you seem to be under the illusion that you are a spokesperson for all trans people and that some trans people actually don’t agree with you.

So tell us exactly why you are using those arguments, that some trans people also hold, as to why a person should not hold a senior role at the Tavistock. An NHS trust. Not a ‘trans’ lobby group. An NHS Trust.

Frankly I couldn’t give a toss if you answer. Your lack of logic, your lack of anything but emotive reasoning says it all. It is not credible and it is ideologically based.