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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Don’t bother applying for a job if you think people can’t change sex, NHS trust tells health official

532 replies

MidCenturyClegs · 25/02/2022 07:29

uk.news.yahoo.com/don-t-bother-applying-job-162233187.html

The wonderful Kate Grimes expressed interest in a non-exec position at the Tavi this year and was told to not waste her time as she holds gender critical beliefs. Peter Daly has been employed. Wow!

OP posts:
Lekisa658 · 01/03/2022 10:21

@MidCenturyClegs
For the same reason you have to accept a gay married couple as a married couple, even if you're a homophobe who does not see gay marriage as legitimate on the basis of "biological reality" (e.g. "not a real marriage cause can't produce kids").

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/03/2022 10:21

Whereas you are trying to deny people the things they want

"I want doesn't get". We learn these things in primary school. Well, some of us.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/03/2022 10:20

If someone does hear voices, do you constantly yell at them "THERE ARE NO VOICES, YOU ARE DELUSIONAL!!"

Do you think people would do that at the Tavistock Clinic?

If someone said "I hear voices in my head and they are saying I need to take over your house or we will all be killed, you'll have to sleep on the street", do you think people would just stand by and say "oh of course, the voices are correct and you must have my house"?

RVN123 · 01/03/2022 10:19

"You have no qualms about triggering trans women's dysphoria by calling them "men", and anyone who is like you is therefore unqualified."

Just as, if I were a psychologist or a mental health professional, I would not affirm someone's belief that they were actually Rasputin, or someone's belief that the voices from the TV were actually real; in no other realm of medicine do we actively encourage the patient's inner and personal untangible beliefs to the detriment of their long term health.

The phrase "being cruel to be kind" is actually true in this case.
We are selling people up the river. Promising an unachievable fantasy, and what is often a lifetime of surgical and hormonal complications. And at the end of it all they are still in the same body they started out in, with a few modifications.
Trans women are NOT women and telling them that they CAN be, is the ultimate gaslighting.
What is wrong with trying to treat the cause of the problem, rather than the symptom?
Why should a man's belief that he is a woman be treated any differently than a man's belief that he is Rasputin / Queen Victoria / Napoleon?
Or is that where healthcare is headed - affirm everything and everyone no matter what the long term implications are, for fear of "triggering" them.

MidCenturyClegs · 01/03/2022 10:17

'Dysphoria is amplified by you refusing to respect trans women as women. Simple as.'

I am pretty much happy to respect that the fact that groups of people have belief systems that I think are ridiculous (for me this is Jehovah's Witness, Church of Scientology). I have a good friend who is a JW and I've politely told him to bugger off when he once tried to recruit me. He's still a good friend.

So why do I have to believe that transwomen are women when they are clearly not, and never can or will be? The oddest part is that knowing this makes me responsible for someone's distress? I'm sure my JW pal was disappointed that I would not accept this belief, but he didn't lay any blame on me?

OP posts:
Lekisa658 · 01/03/2022 10:14

@Ereshkigalangcleg

You are a fan of analogies, Lekisa. Should we tell anorexics they are morbidly obese? Or people who believe they hear voices that someone wants to kill them that they are correct?
If someone does hear voices, do you constantly yell at them "THERE ARE NO VOICES, YOU ARE DELUSIONAL!!"

If this would be your approach, you would absolutely NOT be qualified to treat patients experiencing these ailments

The key differences is that anorectic patients do not want to be fat, people haunted by auditory hallucinations do not want to experience such.

Whereas you are trying to deny people the things they want, because trans people's existence is uncomfortable to you.

Your motivations are entirely selfish.

NecessaryScene · 01/03/2022 10:14

Trans people consciously want to be able to socially live as women, nothing about that wish itself is a "delusion". This is all just you trying to dictate how others should live their lives.

We're only trying to dictate to them how they should live their lives where it intersects with women's lives, because they're trying to dictate how women should live their lives.

If they're saying that any male should be able to compete in female sports, and any male should be able to be placed in a female prison, then that is dictating women's lives, and of course there's going to be pushback.

This is having a massive impact on women. Billions of women's actual lives and safety being harmed for millions of men who "consciously want to be able to socially live as women".

Their want does not trump women's needs.

Lekisa658 · 01/03/2022 10:10

@Lovelyricepudding
“do you also believe that anyone who refuses to agree that an anorexic individual is as fat as they think they are should be nowhere near anorexic patients?”

Not remotely the same thing.

It's actually more like if you were trying to "cure" gay people from experiencing "unnatural urges". That's what you're trying to do to trans people. This is eliminationist rhetoric.

Trans people consciously want to be able to socially live as women, nothing about that wish itself is a "delusion". This is all just you trying to dictate how others should live their lives.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/03/2022 10:09

You are a fan of analogies, Lekisa. Should we tell anorexics they are morbidly obese? Or people who believe they hear voices that someone wants to kill them that they are correct?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/03/2022 10:07

Your only actual issue with the trans-affirming approach is that it's uncomfortable to you, and everything else is just a dishonest play to try and advance your goal of getting "tr*nnies" out of your sight.

The only time I've ever seen that word on Mumsnet is from posters like you. It's just not a word most gender critical feminists use.

Lovelyricepudding · 01/03/2022 10:06

Dysphoria is amplified by colluding in a dysphoric belief. Simple.

Lekisa658 · 01/03/2022 10:04

@NecessaryScene
“As far as we can see, they're not being helped by being told they're women - the current crop of transwomen who (want to) believe they are women seem to be a lot more mentally vulnerable than the previous generation.

I believe the dysphoria is being amplified by them being told they're "women" and that anyone who says they're not hates them.”

Actually what is detrimental to their mental health is the existence of the anti-trans "Gender Critical" movement that aggressively campaigns for restricting their ability to medically and socially transition.

Your only actual issue with the trans-affirming approach is that it's uncomfortable to you, and everything else is just a dishonest play to try and advance your goal of getting "tr*nnies" out of your sight.

Dysphoria is amplified by you refusing to respect trans women as women. Simple as.

Lovelyricepudding · 01/03/2022 09:53

Lekisa658 do you also believe that anyone who refuses to agree that an anorexic individual is as fat as they think they are should be nowhere near anorexic patients? That all clinicians around them should support them losing weight?

Or OCD patients should be told they are correct to spend five hours a day washing their hands because they actually are contaminated when they touch their freshly laundered clothes? Or do you think they should be supported with proven therapies that are distressing and hard work for those patients but ultimately result in a good outcome?

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 01/03/2022 09:52

And this is precisely why gender critical people should not be allowed anywhere near transgender patients.

You have no qualms about triggering trans women's dysphoria by calling them "men", and anyone who is like you is therefore unqualified.

That is unnuanced as it overlooks the profound distinction between holding beliefs and manifesting them. I'm sure that you understand the difference.

Colluding in an immersive fiction is a separate issue.

NecessaryScene · 01/03/2022 09:37

And this is precisely why gender critical people should not be allowed anywhere near transgender patients.

You have no qualms about triggering trans women's dysphoria by calling them "men", and anyone who is like you is therefore unqualified.

As far as we can see, they're not being helped by being told they're women - the current crop of transwomen who (want to) believe they are women seem to be a lot more mentally vulnerable than the previous generation.

I believe the dysphoria is being amplified by by them being told they're "women" and that anyone who says they're not hates them.

The point is to help these people, overall, not to avoid temporary discomfort.

Medicine is not simply "pain avoidance".

Lekisa658 · 01/03/2022 09:33

@Lovelyricepudding

'Transwomen' are men they are not women so why should we refer to them as such? Why should we be required to pretend otherwise? Why should women be used as a prop? And why do you think requiring everyone else to support an individual's fantasy is the best treatment for anyone?
And this is precisely why gender critical people should not be allowed anywhere near transgender patients.

You have no qualms about triggering trans women's dysphoria by calling them "men", and anyone who is like you is therefore unqualified.

Lovelyricepudding · 01/03/2022 09:28

'Transwomen' are men they are not women so why should we refer to them as such? Why should we be required to pretend otherwise? Why should women be used as a prop? And why do you think requiring everyone else to support an individual's fantasy is the best treatment for anyone?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/03/2022 09:26

That's funny, considering that gender critical people consistently lash out whenever a trans woman is referred to as a woman in pretty much any context.

You don't have to share the belief that males can be women to know that some of these people of both sexes need medical care.

rubyslippers · 01/03/2022 09:25

@Helleofabore

And it seems that my autocorrect simply cannot leave ‘goolies’ as is. Quite funny to see it changed to goodies and goalies even after I changed it back both times.

Anyway, I have noticed that Ides has posted in this direction of thinking before - that it is ridiculous to think that just one male can oppress many women just through their presence. Even in jails it seems that Ides believes this phenomena cannot happen.

It is the ‘scale’ argument. How can one transitioned male oppress women? But it seems some posters also think women are pathetic for having an understanding of how this happens.

One male.

Let’s look at ‘one male’. Lia Thomas. How many women’s lives did this male affect? Even to start with, by exposing their ‘penis and goolies’ in the dressing room. Then by taking women’s places in the events they have trained for, trained for much of their lives for. Then by creating a hostile environment for those team mates and competitors who disagree that Thomas should be able to compete ‘as a woman’. Then by breaking records and setting new ones that may never be broken in that league, because Thomas is a male.

Yeah…. Just one male.

One male.

Shall we consider the harm one male can do in a prison. We have the court evidence and now a study, that show that even without physical contact, males cause great harm in female prison estates. I am happy to post links and discuss, but from what I have known of ides it won’t matter.

One male in a female prison estate will cause harm to many female prisoners, and to female prison guards and staff. Including the females who have to search that body with a ‘penis and goolies’. And there are documented instances of those ‘penises and goolies’ being deliberately exposed while showering.

Just one male can cause that wide spread harm in one prison.

One male.

So let’s revisit the toilet situation. One male can be the one that causes multiple women to self exclude. Or just one woman. How many women being harmed by one visit to the toilets by a transitioned male is enough for ides to say.. yeah ok. That is a knock effect that is harmful.

Is it one for one? If the effect of one transitioned male having access causes one woman to self-exclude from ever using that toilet, visiting that store, that theatre, that work place again, is that ok with ides? Because that male has now got the freedom to use female AND male toilets of their choosing, whenever they want. And the woman doesn’t have that choice so doesn’t come back. Or would the knock on effect be considered too. A workplace situation, meaning that potentially a whole family is now without a much needed wage.

Still pathetic, ides.

I know what comes next. That I will be accused of manufacturing a situation that will ‘never happen’. Except it is. Women are telling us they are self excluding all the time. It is just that some people will always ignore those stories because they are ‘kind’ to who they think are the only marginalised and ‘most vulnerable’ … the owner of that ‘penis and goolies’.

Pathetic. Isn’t it.

Bravo a million times
Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/03/2022 09:24

are people going into this thinking they can literally change sex?

Some trans activists think sex is equally about having or not having breasts and which hormones you artificially change your body's hormone profile to, and reproductive role is just one thing among these.

So a male person who takes oestrogen and develops gynecomastia is literally female, and any male can do this.

NecessaryScene · 01/03/2022 09:23

But a core gender critical belief is that transgender patients should not receive transition care in the first place?

It's like putting an anti-vaxer in charge of distributing vaccines.

You seem confused about the point of the service. It's not a "give permanent cosmetic+hormonal treatment to children who want it" service, it's a "help children overcome their sexual identity issues" service.

Your logic seems to be that if any service starts doing something harmful, you can't stop it, because appointing anyone who is skeptical of that thing is described as being "against" that service.

So we couldn't appoint anti-lobotomy people to mental health treatment services performing lobotomies, because "surely a core X belief is that mental health patients should not receive lobotomies?"

Well, yes.

And that's why we want to get onto the board of the service that is giving harmful evidence-free "treatments" to make them reconsider what they're doing.

Now, if the Tavistock wants to be a "give permanent cosmetic+hormonal treatment to children who want it" service, with no dissenters permitted on board, then (a) it's not medicine, and not suitable for NHS funding, and (b) child abuse, because it's not medicine.

(Much like an organisation wanting to be a "lobotomy service" and blocking anti-lobotomy advocates.)

Lekisa658 · 01/03/2022 09:21

@MrsWooster

Lekisa “But a core gender critical belief is that transgender patients should not receive transition care in the first place?” No, it isn’t. There are very many self described transsexual gender critical people who know that gender is a social construct, who know that human beings cannot change sex and who also know that some people suffer dysphoria so utterly distressing that cosmetic and social changes are a means of managing that dysphoria to a limited extent. There has always been, and will always be transgender people and these people need compassionate, informed support.
That's funny, considering that gender critical people consistently lash out whenever a trans woman is referred to as a woman in pretty much any context.

If what you're saying were true, we wouldn't see so much unrelenting resistance to the social changes, or the constant fearmongering about the physical changes.

OldCrone · 01/03/2022 09:18

@WorkingItOutAsIGo

I am old enough to remember this, or think I remember this, but didn’t it used to be the case that it was a core part of the counselling before a sex change that the patient had to show they knew that whilst they could modify their body, they would never actually change sex? I think I am thinking back to reading April Ashley’s autobiography? Or have I muddled this with something else?
I believe this was the case in the past. A trans person who used to post on here said that they had had to sign a declaration to that effect before having genital surgery. I think they had transitioned some time ago - in the 90s or possibly even earlier. I have no idea what happens now - are people going into this thinking they can literally change sex?
MrsWooster · 01/03/2022 09:12

Lekisa “But a core gender critical belief is that transgender patients should not receive transition care in the first place?”
No, it isn’t. There are very many self described transsexual gender critical people who know that gender is a social construct, who know that human beings cannot change sex and who also know that some people suffer dysphoria so utterly distressing that cosmetic and social changes are a means of managing that dysphoria to a limited extent. There has always been, and will always be transgender people and these people need compassionate, informed support.

Helleofabore · 01/03/2022 09:03

Now, though, they - or rather the GC ones - are saying precisely the opposite: that if there's a person in the room equipped with a penis and testicles, that person will, ipso facto, be able to oppress me!

I keep coming back to this and laughing. Does ides know any feminists at all? From decades ago or now?

Maybe an alternative feminist universe?

Maybe Ides should read the wonderful account of Ros Whyte about setting up one of Scotland’s first rape crisis centres

Here on this thread is a share token to the article in the OP

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4492145-SNP-Rebels-Yes-really-and-More

Ros very clearly stated that males were not accepted to enter the centre even to assist, due to the harm it would cause the women.

Oh…. I know! Ides will come back and tell us Ros is not a feminist!! Or was not an early enough feminist!!!

Or somethink!!

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