Don’t bother applying for a job if you think people can’t change sex, NHS trust tells health official

No, you are still forcing people into the "man" and "woman" boxes

What's in these boxes? If it's just meaningless labels, why would anyone care that people refer to their biological sex?

As long as you ars forcing the labels of "man" and "woman" on people against their will, you are (b). Period.

This from someone who denies that same-sex attraction even exists.

Exactly. This has been pointed out on various threads this morning.

^"There's a three-way fight here

(a) genderologists - men should be able to play the "woman" role, women should be able to play the "man" role
(b) right-wing - men have to play the "man" role, women have to play the "woman" role
(c) gender critical - there should not be any roles"^

This has been rebuffed thousands of times.

No, you are still forcing people into the "man" and "woman" boxes against their will. You are still imposing roles.

Self-explanatory. Calling them a "man" is forcing that role on them.

But it's not self explanatory, is it? What role is forced on them, by referring to their biological sex?

You want trans people to not exist by converting them back into cis people who "accept their sex

This shows a complete lack of understanding of the GC position. We are not 'cis' because we do not identify with oppressive sex stereotypes. Of course they must accept their sex, just as they must accept gravity exists. But behaviours and dress associated with gender are harmful social constructs. A man can wear a dress, high heels and makeup, he could be a stay at home parent, work in caring roles, like pink floral fabrics, he could decide to perform what he perceives as feminine behaviours. He can be as gender-non conforming as he wishes but he is still a man.

Just as refusing to treat gay people as equals and let go of homophobic definitions is homophobic.

This from someone who denies that same-sex attraction even exists.

But Lekisa is not entitled to enact those hateful beliefs to discriminate against us. (As we're having to establish via the Forstater case - due to the increased prevalance of blatant anti-woman hate from organisations.)

Lekisa disappeared for a while when I referenced Maya's appeal judgement, and I'm not sure which gay cake case Lekisa was referring to earlier because the recent one in the U.K. which went to the European court upheld freedom of belief and not having to say things you are ideologically opposed to.

Just as refusing to treat gay people as equals and let go of homophobic definitions is homophobic.

"Man" is not a role, any more than a "woman" is.

That's the entire point of our belief.

It's a statement of biology and nothing more. A man (male human) can play any role. But they can't be female, any more than they can be a dog.

There's a three-way fight here

(a) genderologists - men should be able to play the "woman" role, women should be able to play the "man" role
(b) right-wing - men have to play the "man" role, women have to play the "woman" role
(c) gender critical - there should not be any roles

If Lekisa wants to argue against group (b), then Lekisa should go and find some members of group (b). We're group (c) here.

Because this is a feminist forum, so we don't think women should have to play a "woman" role. The clue's in the name.

I'd also note that Lekisa has a whole bunch of hateful and wrong beliefs about us, but I wouldn't advocate discriminating against Lekisa because of them.

Lekisa is entitled to hold these hateful beliefs. But Lekisa is not entitled to enact those hateful beliefs to discriminate against us. (As we're having to establish via the Forstater case - due to the increased prevalance of blatant anti-woman hate from organisations.)

Name calling and abuse is all you peeps have, when it comes down to it.

You want to force trans women to conform to the role of a "man",

Do I? What is the "role of a man"?

You should treat them as women and set aside your personal belief that "woman" must always refer to sex.

Why should we? Just because they want us to? And you call us selfish

Do you believe that gay and lesbian people have the right to be exclusively same sex attracted, Lekisa?

You want to force trans women to conform to the role of a "man", no matter how miserable or suicidal it makes them.

Same thing as forcing a gay man to live as a straight man.

You should treat them as women and set aside your personal belief that "woman" must always refer to sex.

No thank you.

“Do we have to pretend they're the opposite sex?”

You should treat them as women and set aside your personal belief that "woman" must always refer to sex.

“Do we have to believe them when they say they conceived a child naturally?”

Literally no trans woman says this, you've never actually interacted with trans people before (not without barraging them with your ignorant presumptions anyhow), and it really shows.

You want trans people to not exist by converting them back into cis people

Again, the "cis" framing has no meaning to anyone outside your bubble. Do they exist as trans or "cis"? How can they be "converted back into "cis" people, even within your ideology?

For the same reason you have to accept a gay married couple as a married couple, even if you're a homophobe who does not see gay marriage as legitimate on the basis of "biological reality" (e.g. "not a real marriage cause can't produce kids").

And what does that "acceptance" involve, exactly?

Do we have to pretend they're the opposite sex? Do we have to believe them when they say they conceived a child naturally?

If they were making similar demands - if gay men were insisting on going to women's prisons or competing in women's sports - there would be similar resistance.

There is not similar resistance because there are not similar demands.

@RVN123
“The phrase "being cruel to be kind" is actually true in this case.”

Not really. You're just putting your own ideological framework above the needs of trans patients.

You want trans people to not exist by converting them back into cis people who "accept their sex".

No different from homophobes who tried to "cure" homosexuality and make gay people "accept their place in the natural order".

I doubt she is a homophobe. Denying that there is such a thing as exclusively same sex attraction, that's homophobia though.