Don’t bother applying for a job if you think people can’t change sex, NHS trust tells health official

Males have oppressed female people through history, not the other way round. The patriarchy hasn't gone anywhere, this is yet another way women are dismissed.

Lekisa, single sex changing rooms aren't apartheid. It's so girls and women don't have to be exposed to men's cocks. It's really not complicated or controversial.

Here we go again with the back to front, inaccurate analogies.

“You have no right to call women 'cis' which implies an acceptance of and identification with gender stereotypes.”

It doesn't.

The one and only thing "cis" implies is that you were designated female at birth, and call yourself a woman.

That's it. Nothing else. There's no any other "implication". Anything else is entirely imagined on your part.

“There is this thing called society, Lekisa, that has to work for everyone, and balance everyone's rights.”

There was once a time where the majority of white people felt strongly they had a right to separate spaces from those who weren't white, and opposed the push to change that.

The other groups, they argued, were more dangerous and statistically committed more violent crime, and were a threat to vulnerable white children.

How do you feel that should've been "balanced"? Was it making white people "support humans" and infringing on their "rights" to force them to include those who weren't white?

Was it unfair to white athletes to force them to compete against non-white athletes, taking away their rightful prizes?

“Can we have a "non trans" "non cis" identity label please?”

"Cis" literally means "non-trans".

This is like not taking the Covid vaccine and asking for a label that is neither "vaccinated" nor "unvaccinated".

You have no right to call women 'cis' which implies an acceptance of and identification with gender stereotypes.

We define 'woman' as 'adult female human'. Males can never be women (or female, obviously).

If males start defining themselves as women that affects actual women (of the adult female human variety). So I hope you will now respect our right to define ourselves and stop saying that males can be women.

The problem isn't about how you define yourselves, the problem is that you insist that it's you have a "right" to define and restrict others.

Oh, so you're going to respect women's rights not to call ourselves made up nonsense like "cis", then? And you won't have a problem when we lobby companies to tell them not to use it?

Can we have a "non trans" "non cis" identity label please? It's what we identify as. Don't call us "cis" unless we've explicitly asked you to, it's misgendering.

The problem isn't about how you define yourselves, the problem is that you insist that it's you have a "right" to define and restrict others.

There is this thing called society, Lekisa, that has to work for everyone, and balance everyone's rights. Not just giving a few elect individuals what they "want", and everyone else just having to be support humans.

Lia Thomas's right to call himself a "woman" cannot be at the expense of the entirety of female sport. That is not balancing male rights with female rights remotely fairly.

Whatever you believe these identity labels should be "based" on

I don't believe they are identity labels 🤷‍♀️ they are descriptors of material reality.

They literally are. Whatever you believe these identity labels should be "based" on, doesn't change the fact they ade identity labels.

In your bubble maybe. But in the real world, people who have used these labels since they were formed have not agreed, and I doubt you will get the majority to agree. So, it will always be that a group of people decided that they would introduce new definitions over the top of everyone's dissent.

And strangely, those people tell everyone to be 'kind' and 'tolerant' while they are making these changes that others don't want.

“We won't be changing how we define ourselves”

The problem isn't about how you define yourselves, the problem is that you insist that it's you have a "right" to define and restrict others.

"Nature" never forced the labels of "man" or "woman" on me. Never forced me to use specific "sex segregated" spaces.

Nah. "Nature" decides whether our bodies develop in the formation of a reproductive system based around producing one type of gamete. Whether we do that or not.

"Sex segregated spaces" are there because people who have one of the two different formations of the human body have specific requirements. These are based not only on biological functions, but on the safety aspect of those functions. And on the need for privacy.

Your continued and determined ignoring of the needs of females, on a feminist board, on a parenting forum called 'Mumsnet' is quite a thing of enlightenment though.

authoritarians like yourself trying to deprive other people of agency and restricting their bodily autonomy.

This specific thread is about a children's NHS service. It's quite normal to restrict children's "bodily autonomy" for a number of reasons.

If an adult wants to modify their body with their own money, we're not going to stop them. This is about public funding of something perceived to be "treatment", and specifically that being given to children.

"Not paying for something someone wants" is not authoritarian.

*are

“Again, man and woman are not identity labels”

They literally are. Whatever you believe these identity labels should be "based" on, doesn't change the fact they ade identity labels.

Again, man and woman are not identity labels, like goth or mod or "non binary". They are the names for adults of the two sexes which exist. We won't be changing how we define ourselves on the say so of a few entitled people of either sex, or their friends.

"If anyone believes there is something wrong with their healthy body, they first need mental health support."

You are extraordinarily ignorant. This isn't just about "believing something is wrong with a healthy body", this is about consciously wanting to change one's body to a form one would feel more comfortable with, and about authoritarians like yourself trying to deprive other people of agency and restricting their bodily autonomy.

Humans like yourself are doing that.

[quote Lekisa658]@NecessaryScene
“As far as we can see, they're not being helped by being told they're women - the current crop of transwomen who (want to) believe they are women seem to be a lot more mentally vulnerable than the previous generation.

I believe the dysphoria is being amplified by them being told they're "women" and that anyone who says they're not hates them.”

Actually what is detrimental to their mental health is the existence of the anti-trans "Gender Critical" movement that aggressively campaigns for restricting their ability to medically and socially transition.

Your only actual issue with the trans-affirming approach is that it's uncomfortable to you, and everything else is just a dishonest play to try and advance your goal of getting "tr*nnies" out of your sight.

Dysphoria is amplified by you refusing to respect trans women as women. Simple as.[/quote]
Nobody wants to stop people who suffer from debilitating conditions from getting the medical help they need.

In the case of gender dysphoria the primary treatment should be help with their mental health. If anyone believes there is something wrong with their healthy body, they first need mental health support. Providing physical treatment first is equivalent to giving liposuction to an already underweight anorexic just because they are convinced they are overweight.

Why do you think it's uncomfortable for us? You have a very odd view of what we actually think, particularly with the use of the word 'tr**ies' which is not something people here would use.

This thread might help you to understand.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?pg=1

" stop forcing people into boxes they don't want to be in."

Nobody is forcing ANYONE to be in a box
NATURE did that for you.

Unfortunately it's a box that you can never get out of.

And I find it amusing that you talk about us "forcing" ideology onto people. That shows you have a great sense of humour!

The key differences is that anorectic patients do not want to be fat, people haunted by auditory hallucinations do not want to experience such.

Whereas you are trying to deny people the things they want, because trans people's existence is uncomfortable to you.

Oh. Hang on?

So, we have now come to some honesty?

Could you please clarify this?

Are trans people's gender's innate? Or what they want?

And is gender dysphoria NOT a debilitating health issue that deserves and needs careful and individual care plans? Or is it just giving someone what they 'want' not actually what they need, including not identifying whether that person is dysphoric or not?

And are you a spokesperson for all trans people? Should we ignore those people with gender dysphoria that is so debilitating that they tell us that they don't want to have gender dysphoria?

And by the way, if someone does not have gender dysphoria, please tell us again why they should then have state funded treatments that are not available to others 'just because they want them'?

You are forcing somebody into the label that I now cannot identify out of. Your identity HAS to affect my identity, by definition. Your set of characteristics for what a woman is could be COMPLETELY different from mine - just like your set of characteristics of what makes someone nice or funny or friendly. If I don’t agree to the same set of characteristics, do I get the option to define myself? No apparently I don’t.

Do you think it is a stereotype one sex gets pregnant? Do you think it a stereotype that 98% of sexual assaults are carried out by men and 88% of victims are female? Do you think it a stereotype that men have different shaped pelvis, larger hearts and lung capacity, larger hands, more muscle development and muscle strength and this gives them advantage in sport? Do you think it is a stereotype that women display different symptoms of heart attacks?