Grace Lavery & Helen Joyce debate 1/4/2022 It is real

@WeeBisom so grim. Those tweets should come with a trigger warning.

I’m just upset I had to read about Laurie penny and lavery having sex.

So, rape, murder, grievous bodily harm and so on shouldn't be crimes, because Lavery doesn't see how criminalisation helps the victims. How thoughtful of Lavery.

During the recent Mess about the Aaron Rabinowitz debacle, one of the interesting things that came out that I didn't know was the Arty Morty's father had been murdered when Arty was young. Arty feels very strongly about this position that nothing should be a crime.

Lavery spent some time a while back on Twitter complaining they felt unsafe (can’t remember exactly why… something social media based. Twitter Terven? The Farms saying some very mean things?). Anyway, they employed a private security firm for their safety.

What would happen to anyone caught threatening Lavery’s safety with no prison? And considering he’s very anti-cop, anti-military who did he think would be working at these private security firms?

Not sure Lavery thinks things through enough to debate the likes of Helen or Julie. Although it would be amusing to witness.

I read an interview where Lavery was lamenting the lack if opportunities for Trans women to learn proper woman skills from other women, in particular how to apply eye liner.

I don't wear make-up. If I should need to, I would go and have a make-up lesson from one of the many venues that offer them. If that's too spendy, there are YT videos. HTH, Lavery.

Dear god.

I had not come across Lavery before.

This is what struck me:

1. You would think that a Professor would consider fellow academics and intellectuals to be ‘their community’ as well as other points of identity.
2. I read an interview where Lavery was lamenting the lack if opportunities for Trans women to learn proper woman skills from other women, in particular how to apply eye liner. I wondered if she had considered asking fellow academics such as DocStock about this core skill?
3. Reading about Grace’s marriage to Trans man Daniel Lavery I note that they both adopted the surname if the biologically sexed male partner. Odd patriarchal choice for a self proclaimed feminist!

Isn't debating about trying to demolish your opponent? So, 'You shag like a demolition wrecking ball' could be the compliment on offer.

I don't think it means, 'You shag in a way that leads us to be able to explore mutually agreed conclusions'. Not after after the boasting about winning and being the champ. The simile seems to be more about smashing it.

But what do I know. Just pondering really.

@ScreamingMeMe

Well, I agree with Laurie Penny on one thing. I'm glad Lavery is on their side

Has anyone worked out yet whether shagging like a debating champion is a good thing or a bad thing? Because when I was at school, none of the kids who excelled in the debating society were ones you'd want to have sex with.

This is the first time, in my lifetime that the political left has become the joke.

Well, there always was right-wing "humour" caricaturing the left, but it wasn't funny because it didn't really ring true. It was disingenuous and forced.

Whole thing's totally flipped now. The right-wing caricatures of the left are hard to distinguish from the real thing, and it's the left-wing caricatures of the "right" that are disingenous and forced.

Im not sure we have to wait for number 96 though 🤔

The reason why abolish prisons is such a battle cry that goes hand in hand with twaw is because it is the only way to reconcile the rather troublesome prison question.

Of course this whole ideology is leading to men who are convicted Rapists being placed into women's prisons. If we ask about this, if this is okay, no one in their right mind would suggest that it is but they cannot also admit that some tw might be lying so their answer is that there should not be prisons at all. Then they don't have to say that rapists should be put in women's prisons.

See also: sport should not be competitive, it should be about taking part and

Nobody should ever be getting changed in front of anyone else, use a stall and stop looking at other people's genitals, you pervert!!

Well, I agree with Laurie Penny on one thing. I'm glad Lavery is on their side

Oliver Burkeman thinks deeply about the logistics of the potentially-still-happening Julie Bindel debate.

Logic puzzle: if you're both fascists and therefore any platform that platforms you is a platform that platforms fascists, and Lavery backed out of debate #1 to avoid enriching a fascist platform, how can debate #2 go ahead? Helen maybe your Phd can help here

Oh god, imagine The Purge part 96 where everyone’s just going round misgendering everyone on Twitter for 24 hours.

Horrific!

Well not really. It’s just The Purge.

Now that is a proper debate with interesting ideas to think about.

Sorry, it was "I don't think anything should be a crime" etc.

Transcribing by switching tabs on a small screen.

Lavery said "I don't think anything should be illegal. [Snipped for brevity] I don't think the criminalization of harm helps anyone heal".

So, rape, murder, grievous bodily harm and so on shouldn't be crimes, because Lavery doesn't see how criminalisation helps the victims. How thoughtful of Lavery.

Presumably misgendering wouldn't be a crime either?

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus
What was the Andy Lewis letter debate?

Exchange of letters between Andy Lewis and Aaron Rabinowitz: Sceptics need to be Gender Critical.

letter.wiki/conversation/1232

Thanks so much for directing me to that, I had completely missed it. Really interesting.

Grace Lavery is an f-ing joke. Saw her on Twitter the other day, saying she thinks we should abolish all prisons.

That is an interesting question @unwashedanddazed

Almost as if people with extra complicated lives are, I don't know, ideal billboards?

Hard to tell. I will give careful consideration to the lack of academic peers, trans icons, royalists or clever people who are willing to say "Grace is a good egg!" though. I mean, Jacqui only managed to muster a call to arms of "here is the C+P, it's a favour, don't bug me" which is not the most invigorating speech I've heard.

I am a little concerned for Jacqui. Hope she is not being dragged into something she doesn't have time for.

I wonder why Grace used this unwell friend to deliver the retreat message. Why not Grace's husband, Daniel Lavery? They have a lively Twitter account that makes no mention at all of this whole debacle, but is just wittering on about a movie.

Also interesting that the husband has taken the wife's surname. How very unconventional.

It really happened

Just beautiful. There badly needs to be a term, perhaps there is one in another language, which means to go further than a self own, and own not just yourself but the person you're sucking up to. Thereby owning yourself twice.