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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Grace Lavery & Helen Joyce debate 1/4/2022 It is real

307 replies

highame · 19/02/2022 09:15

twitter.com/HJoyceGender/status/1494746862158553088

It is real apparently. Hosted by Unheard

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19
Gumbomambo · 22/02/2022 16:46

Brilliant posts!! I would have blocked you on Twitter too 😂

daringdoris · 22/02/2022 16:30

Wow rabbitwoman, those posts are amazing! No wonder that person couldn't muster up a reply!

In fact, I'm going to read them again...

rabbitwoman · 22/02/2022 14:49

Cont:

The biggest sexist misogynist out there is mother nature, if she had intended men to share the work of nurturing babies they would have been able to breastfeed. But it is women, only women, only ever women that can do this. So equality for women isn't enough, we also need protections and rights that men do not have.

Pregnancy and childbirth takes a toll on a woman's body like nothing a man - or tranwoman - can ever empathise with. A woman's body is no longer theirs alone for 9 months, and will never be the same again. Women who get piles and morning sickness get off easily - to prepare for Childbirth all of the tendons and connective tissue in a woman's body will relax and soften; in one woman i knew this happened prematurely and to the extent that her shoulders and hips started dislocating, she spent BOTH her pregnancies on crutches and in a wheelchair. When my sister was pregnant, the baby drew all the calcium out of her body and her teeth began to crumble. Yes, you get free dental care whilst you are pregnant but that ends as soon as the baby is born and guess what? Your teeth don't grow back.

And childbirth? We gotta push something the size of a melon out of a hole the size of a lemon. it is only very recently, within the last 100 years or so, that childbirth stopped being the no1 cause of death for women globally, but even with those advances in maternity care and medicine, very few women escape childbirth without some kind of longlasting effects - from tears and damage to the vagina and split perineums to permanent pelvic floor and nerve damage. Goodbye orgasms - hello to peeing every time you laugh! To say nothing of the mental toll - dealing with postnatal depression, PTSD and extreme exhaustion being at the beck and call of a tiny little dictator who wakes you up at 3am and demands to be fed from your body. But don't forget to sign onto your work intranet and complete the latest WENUS.

You would think that after everything we go through to grow and give life to every single human being that ever lived, that we would be revered and worshipped, that we would be treated as precious and respected but no. Because making children, raising children, looking after children generates no money - costs money, in fact - so it has been devalued and dismissed in all but the most primitive cultures that existed before money.

However, most humans have a primal desire to have children. To continue their genes, and look after them when they are old and a man cannot do that himself, he needs a woman to do it for him. By hook or by crook - sure, through history men have met women and they fall in love and have babies, sure, but that is but a lovely romantic fantasy for many. Women are still forced into marriages today with much older men and expected to start having babies to the exclusion of any education, or enrichment, and it was ever thus because it is only women who can have babies. In history even privileged women have suffered, probably more than most. No princess or duchess or rich man's daughter was born without instant speculation about who would be best for them to marry and form alliances and power bases, no matter what they wanted to do with their lives and who they wanted to share their bodies with. Margaret Beaufort, mother of Henry VII, was 13 years old when she gave birth, and this is the lot of women, whether they are black or white or Jewish or of noble blood or peasants in the field, this is what has happened to women throughout history so that we can all be here today. A huge proportion of those mothers were raped, forced, coerced, or not given a choice over what to do with their own bodies. A huge proportion of those raped and abused mothers were children themselves.

What women's bodies have done is amazing. It is an honour and a privilege to have one - vaginas are incredible, what they can do whilst pushing out babies is a miracle. You can't make one out of an inverted penis or a length of bowel - it is not a front hole with no other use than for a man to ejaculate into it, it gives life and is unique only to women. yet our sacrifices have been so devalued that even women like me, who have chosen not to have babies, are seen as subservient and second class, only useful for what we can give men, only viable as support for men to have the children they want and the career they desire.

And when women like me chose not to become mothers? Or the women who can't? We still all share that biology and the oppression and prejudices that come with it. I still had periods - yup, horrible to start them so young but I am very lucky that mine aren't too bad. Just a bit of diarrhea and some awful wind, a few leaks but then I always wear black trousers, just in case! For some, with periods come endemetreosis, Pre menstrual tension, hormonal migraines, bloating, breast pain..... And the next part of my female story will be the glory of menopause....

Superb. I will battle my hardest against becoming one of those 'invisible women'; whilst my body sends out signals that I am no longer fertile so not worth fucking, society will be saying I have not played my role in contributing to the human race so am worthless. But will I finally be free to persue my dream of becoming The Ultimate Fighting Champion!?

Not if I have to come up against Fallon Fox I won't. Not with a body now at increased risk of osteoporosis and all the female cancers held momentarily at bay by pre-menopausal levels of Eastrogen. Whilst a 78 Yr old man has just been voted Leader of the Free World I will be trying to stop my vagina from atrophying and plucking my newly sprouting chin hair, no doubt.

Do you think when a transwoman says that she's a woman because she feels like a woman she's talking about the main characteristics that have defined women's lives for millenia? The pain and challenges of pregnancy and Childbirth, loosing ourselves in the role of motherhood? What does 'living as a woman' mean? When transwomen say they are now living as a woman, do they mean juggling three children, a full time job, doing all the house work and carrying all the emotional workload of a family whilst looking sexy to keep their men happy?

Literally every transgression against women that has ever been committed is because the world needs babies and women are the only people who can make those babies so that is what our smaller weaker, slower bodies are designed for. Sex is not a spectrum because there is no spectrum of pregnancy - there aren't some of us who only grow heads and some who do feet! One woman, one baby - often more than one ! - and that is a physical sacrifice, a huge risk, a lifetime commitment and something that men do often take for granted.

To me, anyone who says transwomen are women does not appreciate the unique function of our female bodies, which is to have babies, or has ever given thought to the sacrifices and hardships billions of women have faced throughout the whole of human history to give birth to every single human being on the planet.

Anyone who says 'yes, but the question is, what makes someone a woman, is it something more than your biology, something innate?' is thumbing their noses at every single woman - and girl - who has ever died in childbirth.

To me, anyone who talks about gender spectrums, or male brains or female brains don't seem to know where babies come from - babies don't come out of our amygdalas, Nick!

And if you say, yes, but some men have babies, and some women have penises, then you have removed the ability to group all of us together and talk about our lives and define the oppression against us. We need to be able to describe the class of people that have babies and need protections because they have babies and that word is woman.

That's the true story of womanhood and there is plenty of room for anyone who shares that story, including transmen should they so chose. Why does manhood have to be so inflexible and rigid that you are excluding transwomen?

As a thank you for having bodies that make children please can we keep our womens' sports? Please can we let our bodies be celebrated for doing something other than make babies? Please don't let us lose even one accolade to a transwoman whose body hasn't had to sacrifice strength and power so it can use every cell to best keep the human race going?

So, in reparation for the abuses heaped on our female bodies please can we keep our language to describe ourselves and our experiences? Everyone knows what women are and what women have done for humanity, so please don't call us cervix havers or menstruators, please don't tell us that's all we are. Please don't call us cis, please don't make us define ourselves by what we are not, we should be the default, not a subset.

Call us TERFs by all means, that's what we are, but don't spit it like an insult. When women like me, or jk Rowling, assert that biological reality exists and sex is real, please don't bully us off of our platforms by calling us bigots. Don't shut us up by telling us we are transphobic, don't tell us we are ignorant and need to get an education, don't tell us we have no right to comment and should check our privilege. We have earnt the right to that opinion by living in our bodies, make reparations for the things those bodies have been through and done for you by respecting that right. If you see anyone doing it, challenge them. You start off the new rhetoric; respect the TERFS, we may not agree but don't threaten to punch them or rape them or set them on fire because honestly, they have been through enough. Don't repress their opinions and make them fear for their livelihoods, don't block, don't insult. Do this in reparation for how women have ever been treated,.

Now, you believe that there is a more elusive quality that transcends biology and makes transwomen women and transmen men, that has nothing to do with any of this - i would be very interested to really understand that because i cannot see how a feeling, a belief, that cannot be described without resorting to sexist and misogynistic stereotypes really can trump biological reality. I have asked - in the quick fire world of twitter as soon as we question it we are told to shut up! Transphobe! Bigot! Disgusting TERF, check your privelege and choke on my girl dick! BLOCK!! Or the polite version of let's not talk about this because I can't change your mind and I don't want to fall out..... So no one has ever even given me a convincing account of what makes a woman if its not her biology.

but you can maybe understand why TERFs are so set in their beliefs?

You believe that women's rights should hinge on that and here there are no half measures, it really has to be one or the other.

but that does not mean we have no common ground. Work to move past it and see if a solution lies elsewhere.

rabbitwoman · 22/02/2022 14:47

I feel that it is really hard to look at anything else without getting past the TWAW/ TWAM question and what this throws up. I really want to spend a bit of time putting this to bed, because it does seem that anyone even hints that they may not be fully behind TWAW without exception is labelled as transphobic from the off.

You said that you were astonished that women were merely asking for equality and not revenge - what an interesting idea! But revenge on whom? My dad, my brothers? My nephews? My husband? No need for revenge but yeah, i think we are well overdue appropriate reparations,

Take the recent BLM movement - yes, yes, all lives matter, but the fact is that there was a point of time, within living memory, that black lives mattered less than white. The evil of slavery and segregation may be in the past, but the consequences for the black community are still felt today - not just residual racism, but the opportunities denied whole generations of black people have led to the poverty and persecution they still suffer. This is going to take lifetimes to unpick and put right, but we are trying - we show the community the respect it deserves by giving it protections and rights, but also, we are trying to redress the balance with scholarships, organisations, charities, awards, associations, political spaces and services that are just for black people. Not for white people, even if they feel an affinity with the black community, even if they identify as black, these things are for black people only, to make reparations for the atrocities they have suffered and try to redress the balance. Imagine a political movement with a huge focus on the rights of white people to be legally recognised as black; 'TB are B! End of! Check your privilege, get an education!' Transracial people do exist, i assume you have seen the Rachel Doziel documentary (Netflix?)? But there is no way a white person could ever be black because being black has included atrocities and prejudices that a white person could never know about.

But over half of black people are women. Any class oppressed because of a shared characteristic is over half made up of women - black people, Jewish people, Muslims, gay people, disabled people, suffer prejudices based on their shared characteristics and then on top of that women suffer from sex based persecution too, which is only and ever because of the biology we share. No other oppressed demographic makes up over half of the world's population.

As a class, the thing that unites us is our biology. It is our biology that has imprisoned us and trapped us and robbed us of opportunities to flourish that men take for granted, because our biology is the only biology that can have babies.

You mentioned Miss America earlier and dismissed Phyllis Schlafly as a misogynistic woman. She was no such thing - if anything, she was a realist and i think she was a visionary, like she had a crystal ball or something! Equal rights for women mean nothing without robust and appropriate protections. Of course a woman should be paid the same wage for doing exactly the same job as a man - but what happens when that woman gets pregnant and can no longer do the exact same job as her male counterpart? What happens when that baby comes along and that woman now has to nourish that baby, care for that baby? Caring for children is a full time commitment, someone has to be there every minute of the day, especially when they are small, so if women are now equal to men and therefore expected to do the same as men, who is having and looking after all these babies? Equal rights outside the home mean nothing without equal responsibility inside the home, otherwise you are just doubling a woman's workload.

Just imagine a pregnant Prime Minister. Would a Prime Minister who had just given birth or had a baby or a toddler be able to do the same job as a Prime Minister who hadn't? And i make no comment on the gender identity of said hypothetical Prime Minister - could be a transman, non-binary or a woman, the problems would be exactly the same. And now consider that Boris Johnson, Gordon Brown and Tony Blair all became new fathers whilst in Downing Street and yet were able to step back into the role without a lot of disruption - it would not have made any difference if one of them had identified as female, they still would have been able to do so. Of course, an incredibly ambitious Prime Minister would not let the small matter of giving birth stop them - unless they lost 8 pints of blood, maybe, then they might need a few days to get back on their feet - and a nanny (or manny) could be found for an immediate start, but that is not an option open to many many women. There is no equality there - what about waste removal operatives, soldiers, teachers, sports professionals, doctors, cashiers, delivery drivers ..... well, i tell you what, why don't you try and find an example of a career that it does not affect?

This is a challenge faced by working women to this day. A high flying, high earning career is greedy of your time and the competition is fierce. Yes, of course a woman can be anything she wants to be, but she also has to have babies too - does that sound like equality to you?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/02/2022 14:46

was disappointed, but not surprised. I had actually thought I was in the middle of having a reasonable, respectful and equal debate but no. I was refusing to be told to be kind....

It's often fear that you might have a point that they can't refute and then they won't be able to pretend or handwave it all away, that you might make them into an unwoke pariah, that's why the #bekind crew get so very very angry. They don't appreciate you bursting their bubble.

rabbitwoman · 22/02/2022 14:43

In the email exchange I mentioned earlier I had one last essay to submit.... No one ever got to read it and I thought it was pretty good - I will put it here, it is pretty long, might take three separate posts, so leap past if it is not your thing, but i think here is as good a place as ever for it....

OneEpisode · 22/02/2022 14:39

The podcast linked earlier (Nina Paley and Corinna Cohn vs Grace) was very interesting, I would recommend it. Corinna has had testes surgically removed and mentioned a time when C couldn’t afford hormones. The contrast to GL was very marked…

WinterTrees · 22/02/2022 14:34

I get SO frustrated with the way 'fascist' is randomly chucked about as shorthand for 'really mean person who disagrees with me'. It really does smack of Rik from the Young Ones, and for someone who claims to be an academic using it without irony as a valid reason not to engage in debate is just... bafflingly bonkers.

But then, I'm one of those people who believe words have meanings.

rabbitwoman · 22/02/2022 14:29

..... and I love hearing Helen Joyce speak, she is eloquent and elegant and obviously sharply intelligent with all the evidence at her fingertips. Just reading her book, actually, and I cannot imagine anyone reading it and coming away with allegiance to Lavery et al intact.

RoyalCorgi · 22/02/2022 14:24

rabbitwoman: what you have described is absolutely par for the course with these people. They have no rational arguments, just abuse and appeals to emotion. If you attempt to reason with them they simply call you a fascist and block you. This is exactly what Lavery has done - called Helen a fascist and then did the real life equivalent of blocking which was to refuse to debate.

I think two things probably became clear to Lavery very quickly. One is that the debate was going to be attended by hundreds of feminists supporting Joyce, and not very many trans activists (because in truth, there aren't that many, and most of them are keyboard warriors who haven't got the energy to make it as far as Shepherds Bush). The second thing is that Lavery would be bringing a knife to a gunfight. The humiliation of the famed Cambridge debater being roundly beaten by a woman - the real kind - would be too much.

rabbitwoman · 22/02/2022 14:10

Ages ago, I was having a twitter exchange with someone who was once one of my best friends on this subject, and a few of his pals joined in including one who said would I like to take this off twitter and get into a proper email exchange instead? (he was a bit more condescending, but in the spirit of understanding rather than persuading, I thought.... )

Anyway, the resultant exchange was about 20 sides after two or three emails and was going quite well, I thought. I didn't need to go into any background with this guy, he knew the law and the background so it was a very interesting, thought provoking conversation but, it was very clear, all the reasoning, logic, evidence and sense was coming from my side. He used a lot of words to basically say 'you should be kind because otherwise you are a fascist' without a lot of substance to back it up.

However, I engaged in good faith. It was his go to reply, I was waiting. It had ended positively, I had said that I was enjoying the conversation - but I was standing firm, nothing he had to say was moving me from my opinion.

Anyway, I noticed him engaging on twitter again so I did what you are supposed to do on twitter and engaged, I replied to a tweet of his and next thing I know he was raining down such a nasty tirade of abuse on me!! Saying he had trued his best to get through to me, but I was obviously thick and had no understanding of the struggles of the LGBTQ community, I was a transphobe and a bigot but also refusing to address my internal misogyny, I REFUSED to listen to what he was saying WHILST SCREAMING that no one was listening to ME, when he had been so patient and kind as to explain it all to me..... He then proclaimed me 'no friend of the LGBTQ community' and blocked me....

I was disappointed, but not surprised. I had actually thought I was in the middle of having a reasonable, respectful and equal debate but no. I was refusing to be told to be kind....

I just think this will be the way it goes for a while yet. Pretty soon there will be more evidence of detransitioners and more evidence of harm from puberty blockers and we might be able to build bridges again, seems a shame they must be built on the pain of others....

Anyhoo, I am holding firm.

billydilly · 22/02/2022 14:04

Oh please let Lavery's replacement be Monty, I'd buy a shed load of tickets for that

SeaRabbit · 22/02/2022 13:43

We can all stop being envious of that Fingerbanging In Berlin now we've seen the unfiltered images of the kind of person who might have been administering it.

Thank you for that laugh, Esma.

highame · 22/02/2022 13:29

Just back to the make up stuff (sorry) but couldn't she (Grace) approach India Knight who does a make up piece in one of the Times supplements at weekends. Never read it cause I wasn't sure whether what suited India would be good for my skin. I'm very helpful, it's in my nature Grin

OP posts:
LaChanticleer · 22/02/2022 12:56

But I think Grace will cancel last minute. There is a reason why their stance has always been 'no debate'.

Very percipient, @rabbitwoman

Aren't we all just truly shocked? Not.

Gosports · 22/02/2022 12:50

I’ve just searched ‘Grace Lavery’ on Twitter, scrolled a fair way down the top tweets and didn’t find one single one that was supporting her. Good to see, especially on Twitter!

teawamutu · 22/02/2022 12:25

GL wasn't silenced.

GL saw an out and grabbed it.

Manderleyagain · 22/02/2022 12:21

For those who haven't come across lavery before. I want to link to the blogs and to-do that happened back in 2018. For some reason i can't link on my phone but a historian (in queer history) produced a 'manifesto' on free speech. From memory I think it said something about pronouns. Lavery didn't like it and wrote a blog in la review of books.

BLARB Grace lavery Grad School As Conversion Therapy 29/10/2018

The historian replied, saying things which they obviously didn't realise were currently not allowed to be said. (The tone is a bit off on my view)

BLARB Conversion therapy v re-education camp: an open letter to Grace lavery. By Christopher castiglia and Christopher Reed.

A whole bunch of queer studies ppl wrote against the historian in defence of lavery.

BLARB an open letter from queer studies scholars 13/12/2018

The historian replied with a cringe apology. The manifesto was removed at some point. By all accounts he was lucky to keep his job.

BLARB Lessons Learned by Christopher castiglia ad Christopher Reed 19/12/18

The historian has said nothing on the issue since as far as I know.

morningtoncrescent62 · 22/02/2022 12:09

Update from Unherd. unherd.com/thepost/how-grace-lavery-was-silenced-by-her-own-community/

"Perhaps naively, I had hoped that, once there in person, we would be able to find some common humanity and maybe even have a civil and productive conversation. Instead it seems that voices within the trans community are so powerful that they are forbidding any discussion from taking place — and the result will surely be to increase alienation and lack of understanding. Grace’s original instinct to reach out and talk was the right one; it’s a loss for both communities that she was talked out of it.

So here is our offer. We have a beautiful venue, an engaged audience, Helen Joyce has generously agreed to still take part. We would like the event to go ahead. Will any prominent figure from the trans community step forward and take part in a good faith discussion?"

Floisme · 22/02/2022 12:04

I must admit, if I'd been shooting my mouth off on Twitter and realised I'd let myself in for a debate with Helen Joyce then I'd have probably been looking for a way out.

EsmaCannonball · 22/02/2022 11:59

We can all stop being envious of that Fingerbanging In Berlin now we've seen the unfiltered images of the kind of person who might have been administering it.

duvet · 22/02/2022 10:36

Has anyone heard of street epistemology? it's mission is to encourage critical thinking and skeptism, to get people to think about why they believe what they believe, they have some really interesting debates on you tube including the above.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 22/02/2022 10:28

@Cailin66

What is 'the farms'?
Kiwi Farms - I don't go to that part of the internet as I'm a delicate flower.
teawamutu · 22/02/2022 10:25

Has anyone worked out yet whether shagging like a debating champion is a good thing or a bad thing? Because when I was at school, none of the kids who excelled in the debating society were ones you'd want to have sex with.

I'd assumed it meant 'focuses entirely on own performance and then congratulates self with no acknowledgement or awareness of other side'.

So, y'know...

Cailin66 · 22/02/2022 10:22

What is 'the farms'?

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