Grace Lavery & Helen Joyce debate 1/4/2022 It is real

Apparently this woman is terrified of her own 'side' and is keeping it hush. I think it is great that a gc person is helping her prepare.

Let us bear in mind the source of this claim while also acknowledging that the source of it means that we might not agree on the definition of woman in this context.

But grace is also saying helen and the other gc debater are 'fascists' and telling trans people not to attend to support her because of the harm they will be exposed to.

Oh I can see the narrative already. The GC women who are desperate for this to be debated in public will turn up. Lavery doesn't want any supporters there so Lavery will be able to claim a scary, bullying atmosphere and that Lavery was the most vulnerable minority being bullied?

Is that it?

I am torn between wanting to see this issue openly debated and wanting to support Helen and not wanting to treat Lavery with undeserved importance.

I've bought a ticket - interesting that unlike any of the meetings organised by women's groups the venue is publically available.

On twitter grace says that she has 2 debates with GCs lined up. I wonder who the other one is with?

She also says there is a well known gender critical activist helping her prepare. Apparently this woman is terrified of her own 'side' and is keeping it hush. I think it is great that a gc person is helping her prepare. The better the quality of the discussion, and the more genuine knowledge of each others sides arguments they have the more genuine and positive the outcome will be. I can believe that someone is scared of twitter pile-ons and harsh criticism. I don't like going against the gc consensus here or on twitter. (In person is much better).

But grace is also saying helen and the other gc debater are 'fascists' and telling trans people not to attend to support her because of the harm they will be exposed to. She can sometimes sound sensible but then says this complete fruit-loopery & it casts doubt on everything she says.

I hope it goes ahead. I wonder if it will be available to see afterwards.

@Cwenthryth
Hmmm!!!! I just happen to have that day off. I’ve bought a ticket to attend in person. I’m genuinely interested to hear what Grace has to say.

I figure if Grace doesn’t turn up - which is what everyone expects - it’ll still be a good night to meet and chat with likeminded women. The bar could be very interesting, if the event also attracts transactivist attendees who actually want to come into the venue and listen to what is being said, rather than just stand outside and shout abuse as they usually do! And maybe Grace will surprise us, which would be great, because as I said, genuinely interested in an actual honest in-person discussion between a vocal TRA and HJ.

I think I’m going to get a ticket to go in person, just need to check my diary. I would be really interested to meet and talk to GC people in real life - I had a chat recently with a couple of GC women who were protesting outside a government department and happened to be getting coffee in my local coffee shop, and it was so much more constructive and positive than all the online discussions/arguments I’ve been involved in.

I suspect I’ll find the actual event a bit depressing though - from what you’ve posted of GL I’m not sure she’s the person I want arguing ‘my side’ of the debate….

Such a shame. Mind, I wouldn't want a pile of Foucault, Levi Strauss, Butler and the usual tediums.

I see rabbitwoman beat me to it.

Isn’t it telling that no one is worrying about Helen being a no-show? The gender critical stance definitely has more steadfast, professional advocates. If we really represent such a tiny, tiny minority view then surely TW should have the upper hand in these debates? It would be like debating a flat Earther. Bring your evidence and arguments, Grace. Let’s hear them. I’d love some straight answers.

..... also, why not just blast HJ out of the water with all their excellent, evidence based arguments backed up with research and data?

Huh?

referring to the event as “enemy territory” and warning followers that attendees will be “hateful people”

Then why don't they buy up all the tickets?

Katy monty might do it.

Sorry, screenshot

Just went to have a look what Grace is saying about this on Twitter.

• slagging off Unherd and hoping to find a way to share the content for free
• referring to the event as “enemy territory” and warning followers that attendees will be “hateful people”
• the attached screenshot……don’t really have words for that! Obviously a completely appropriate thing to say publicly, that they plan to use sexually explicit material to prepare their mindset for a public discussion on women’s rights.

It doesn’t really come across like Grace is interested in finding any kind of way forward, just in having a public scrap. For someone who chose their own name…..was it ironic?

[quote Dobedodo]@rabbitwoman but 3 on that list aren’t trans[/quote]
Ahh, yes, I do understand and conceed, but I am just imagining a last minute scenario....

@rabbitwoman but 3 on that list aren’t trans

There are many many commentators happy to rip apart women's rights unchallenged, but will any step up to take Grace's place if need be!?

Owen Jones
Munroe bergdoft
India willoughby
Jamila jameel
Ash sarkar

How about Bridget Christie?

But there will be enough really amazing women there to make it a worth while event and maybe some intelligent, thoughtful and articulate people from Grace's side who can put forward some questions?

..... But I think Grace will cancel last minute. There is a reason why their stance has always been 'no debate'.

That's never been Lavery's stance, as far as I can tell. It's more "as much exposure for me as possible, please, so I can say more outrageous things and get away with it".

My money's on it going ahead, with bizarre antics following.

Hmmm!!!! I just happen to have that day off. I’ve bought a ticket to attend in person. I’m genuinely interested to hear what Grace has to say.

I figure if Grace doesn’t turn up - which is what everyone expects - it’ll still be a good night to meet and chat with likeminded women. The bar could be very interesting, if the event also attracts transactivist attendees who actually want to come into the venue and listen to what is being said, rather than just stand outside and shout abuse as they usually do! And maybe Grace will surprise us, which would be great, because as I said, genuinely interested in an actual honest in-person discussion between a vocal TRA and HJ.

If Lavery does cancel does Lavery have to repay the hire costs? These things are quite costly so bar exigent circumstances it's very bad form to withdraw. I've no idea what insurance arrangements can be made.

@rabbitwoman i met Helen Staniland at a conference and was too embarrassed to let on that I knew who she was (I was quite new to it at that point) but she was absolutely lovely

If it does go ahead, I predict a gish gallop (gish galloping?) from Lavery.

I had never heard of it as a diversion technique before becoming aware of this debate, but have seen it used by the TWAW side.

The Mess was a mess alright.Might have worked better 1 to 1 than having the whole crew on there. HJ has a mind like a steel trap. Can't see her falling for diversionary tactics or provocations.

I'll have a read of that, thank you.