Grace Lavery & Helen Joyce debate 1/4/2022 It is real

Perfect from Helen. The comparison is striking.
How the hell do these people manage to hold down jobs (or get appointed in the first place)?
And how the hell do they get to be considered as experts in any shape or form? Beggars belief.

Helen has the measure of the Prof

twitter.com/hjoycegender/status/1495370148525531139?s=21

This is pretty pathetic. Lavery has called HJ a fascist not worth engaging with, has made it clear that Lavery isn't participating in good faith and has told supporters to stay away. No-one who is confident in their position does that.

GL throwing their toys out of their pram so quickly is helpful. I’d been talking to DH about whether we could rearrange a social engagement on 1 April. As you were…

tiphaine

Ha!!

Surely somewhere someone with some political clout (starmer?) is looking at this and going oohhhhhh..... NOW I understand....

And if not, why not?

Lavery said that the GC woman helping was "terrified of her own side", which I don't think is true of Rosa.

Personally, I think the mystery GC woman helping out is probably a trans woman.

[quote rabbitwoman]Grace is definitely, definitely gearing up to drop out:

twitter.com/graceelavery/status/1495207533526466562?t=m3YsQVPmrpzeGd7nq2ypxQ&s=19[/quote]

Succinct reply:

I assume that is what any ‘GC’ feminist is attempting to do is explain the situation more clearly. But that is just my assumption.

In ‘advising’ Lavery I mean

adultchild

I assume that is what any ‘GC’ feminist is attempting to do is explain the situation more clearly. But that is just my assumption.

Maybe it will make for a better debate so it won’t start like Glinner’s attempt with that skeptic that simply did nothing but sling crap which had to be pushed back.

I imagine Lavery will start by attempting to get Helen onto to back foot immediately having to ‘refute’ crap claims. Because that is their behaviour on twitter. Hopefully having a moderator will get rid of that.

[quote unwashedanddazed]As Laverey has taken to calling Helen Joyce a fascist, I think we can safely say it must be Helen's fault for providing cutted up pear, as requested.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_classics/1301196-If-my-3yo-had-access-to-AIBU[/quote]
And both Joyce and Bindel are described as outriders…

I don't think Lavery understands the UK situation well.

As Laverey has taken to calling Helen Joyce a fascist, I think we can safely say it must be Helen's fault for providing cutted up pear, as requested.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_classics/1301196-If-my-3yo-had-access-to-AIBU

If so, I'd be sad if she's spoken about other women in those terms.

What terms? I would have to see Rosa say them directly, I couldn’t believe anything Lavery would say.

I notice Rosa has again deregistered her twitter but I thought I saw an exchange between her and Helen J. I assume that she may have offered some explanation on UK perspective but Lavery has bragged and bigged it up.

Hmmn. Could happen.

I wonder, however, if GL is discovering that TERF Island is a relative Utopia compare to the US with many provisions and protections for trans people that they can scarcely conceive of there.

Some of the twitter responses are pointing out that it was Lavery who issued the invitation in the first place.

I am finding this predictable, but very interesting.

Firstly, there does not seem to be any acknowledgement from GL or any of her followers that issuing an invitation to debate then obviously and publicly backing out shows huge weaknesses in their arguments.

Secondly, did Grace imagine that no one would answer her challenge? Did she think that GC feminists such as HJ were just as hesitant to debate as she is for the same reasons? Even for someone like Grace, I cannot imagine why she would issue such a bold challenge to debate only to make noises about backing out as soon as it is all arranged, unless she thought no-one would agree to do it?

To add to my list of people I would like to see step in at the last minute should grace not show I would love to add Robin Moira White. I think she would be great in a debate with Helen Joyce....

Grace is definitely, definitely gearing up to drop out

What a very astonishing turn of events that would be.

Grace is definitely, definitely gearing up to drop out:

twitter.com/graceelavery/status/1495207533526466562?t=m3YsQVPmrpzeGd7nq2ypxQ&s=19

@Boadicea2 interesting that unlike any of the meetings organised by women's groups the venue is publically available.

Good point made a page or two back. Not sure you're taggable, @Boadicea2, which is curious in itself.

Yes, I've been to meetings of (mainly) middle aged women with no funding and no time which had to take place in "Manchester" - and we all went there to be told the exact location within 3 hours of the meeting for fear of getting hijacked by TRAs.

It's like the actual resistance for menopausal women. The known threat to society, women in their prime. FFS.

So, yes, I think you make a valuable point. If I was to organise a meeting today for the 1st April I'd be very, very careful about how I advertised it.

Is Rosa Freedman the person helping Lavery or doing another debate?

I mean either way should improve Lavery’s contribution for the night. Hopefully.

mobile.twitter.com/kellyjane4good/status/1495145727969792000

Honestly, this is a conversation that needs to be had. Lavery must surely be intelligent and eloquent enough to offer a good discussion. I hope it happens.

I've never heard of Freddie Sayers, does anyone know if he is neutral, or if not, which side he leans towards?

He usually appears neutral but Unherd has given a lot of airtime to feminists (often from a cancel culture starting point) and I would say he always lets women speak and explain what has happened.

And Grace Lavery - who I've had to look up - is an actual professor, at Berkeley, which is a real and respected university, actually comes out with stuff like this publicly? Jesus Christ.

Lots of people have the title of professor but it some places it means lecturer rather than an endowed chair (which is what lots of people still think it is).

I've no idea what Lavery is, tbh.