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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Good Law Project commissions legal advice on trans children and schools

38 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 16/02/2022 20:34

goodlawproject.org/news/legal-advice-for-trans-children/

"To help parents and schools, Good Law Project has commissioned some expert legal advice which we hope will help schools in England and Wales understand their responsibilities and help families understand their rights."

I've had a quick scan (IANAL) and it all seems pretty sensible as far as I can see? The Fox Killers editorialising doesn't always seem to say quite the same thing as the full opinion IMO which is interesting (but that may just be me).

  • Co-ed schools cant exclude a child because they are trans
  • Schools aren't required to treat children as the gender they identify with in all situations
  • Single sex schools don't have to admit children who only identify as that sex.
OP posts:
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Xiaoxiong · 17/02/2022 21:37

Also, the reason daughters of staff could be admitted to Eton, Radley, Winchester etc in the past without compromising the rest of the provision for boys was that they lived at home with their parents, the school didn't have to accommodate them. No sharing of dorms, showers, etc.

Boarding schools with mixed sixth forms have girls' boarding houses.

Artichokeleaves · 17/02/2022 21:22

I think this example shows JM's background. Boys'public schools sometimes admit daughter's of staff, e.g. I met a girl who was the only girl at Radley once.

I highly doubt the girl was using the boys' toilets, changing rooms and dormitories alongside them, nor was everyone required to participate a belief that the girl was in fact a boy whether or not they personally perceived or believed them to be so, and under threat of punishment for not colluding.

KittyLeMew · 17/02/2022 21:00

I’m going to refer to this as The Shit Cunt Project from now on.

LEAVE (NATAL) WOMEN AND GIRLS ALONE!!!!!

NecessaryScene · 17/02/2022 20:46

I think this example shows JM's background. Boys'public schools sometimes admit daughter's of staff, e.g. I met a girl who was the only girl at Radley once.

Okay, so that has happened (in the past). But was their single-sex status then ever challenged? (And was that pre-or-post EA2010?)

If there's not been a ruling, the mere fact it's happened doesn't tell you anything about the point in question, which is can a school then legally justify turning away other people of the same sex on the basis of their sex?

Lovelyricepudding · 17/02/2022 19:55

There is another way girls are admitted to boys schools and that is sixth forms - sometimes these will be co-ed when the rest of the school is single sex.

MsGoodenough · 17/02/2022 19:29

@NecessaryScene

A recognised example of this is a single-sex school that admits children of members of staff irrespective of sex.

Where does this happen?

I think this example shows JM's background. Boys'public schools sometimes admit daughter's of staff, e.g. I met a girl who was the only girl at Radley once. No state girls'or boys' school would ever do that though. (I live and teach in an area where most state schools are single sex)
Lovelyricepudding · 17/02/2022 17:10

Why is the default example boys being admitted to girls schools? Hmm

(Rhetorical question)

Artichokeleaves · 17/02/2022 12:12

The selfishness is off the scale. It's purely a desire to remove female facilities from female people.

Why should an entire school of female children and all the female pupils yet to come lose the option of a female only environment and education with all the opportunities it provides, because a male child wants what they want? (Or rather are being facilitated by adults for a political purpose of subordinating females)

There are plenty of mixed sex schools where a child can identify as whatever they want without it affecting the provision of other children.

Now the GLP has announced their wish list and personal interpretation with heavy bias towards TQ+, I will now await FPFW and those wonderful Scots female legal professionals releasing the wish list and personal interpretation centred on female children's interests and needs.

Goatsaregreat · 17/02/2022 10:45

@Swear

His tactic is not to say that girls' schools HAVE to accept transgirls (boys). It's to say that they CAN do so without losing their legal status. If he can get people to believe that, then he just hands over to the TAs to use abuse and threats until the schools cave in under the pressure.
THIS! The majority of changes detrimental to women and girls have happened because organisations are relentlessly threatened and bullied - to the extent that even fundamental safeguarding children principles fall, let alone women's rights to safety and privacy from men.
Beowulfa · 17/02/2022 10:09

I can't believe Eton will admit girls. It'll be the same as primogeniture; somehow it's clear who is/isn't female when it comes to money, status and power.

Swear · 17/02/2022 09:59

His tactic is not to say that girls' schools HAVE to accept transgirls (boys). It's to say that they CAN do so without losing their legal status. If he can get people to believe that, then he just hands over to the TAs to use abuse and threats until the schools cave in under the pressure.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/02/2022 07:38

What about:

Can a girls school refuse to admit a boy who identifies as a female?

Shit. I thought I had checked so carefully as well. That was what Q6 was meant to say.

OP posts:
Xiaoxiong · 17/02/2022 07:18

Necessary** this used to happen in some boys' schools - I know a woman who went to Winchester as her father was a housemaster, ditto there was an article in the papers a few years back by a woman who went to Eton. That was decades ago and I know the practice has stopped, certainly at Eton now, daughters of teachers have to go elsewhere for school and at Winchester they now are planning to go co-ed.

The point being that those girls had special status, and their admission didn't change the fact that girls without that status couldn't apply to the school so it remained single sex.

highame · 17/02/2022 06:51

@Datun

Is he trying to get this in before the EHRC clarify their advice on single sex facilities?

I really don't think that his authority over how to uphold the equality act is going to trump theirs.

You can discriminate on the grounds of sex, and also gender reassignment. Of course.

It must be both fair to people with the other protected characteristics and justifiable. Which isn't really very hard.

Absolutely this

Even though GLP doesn't have authority over EHRC, given the past record of SW bulldozing their law through, it stands to reason GLP are trying to do the same thing but under a different name and using different words - as Morecombe and Wise might say

NecessaryScene · 17/02/2022 06:43

A recognised example of this is a single-sex school that admits children of members of staff irrespective of sex.

Where does this happen?

DdraigGoch · 17/02/2022 02:17

@PamDenick

Schools DO discriminate in the grounds of age. You can’t be 33 and ask to join Year 7.
I'm sure that Stonewall will have that as their next campaign
LunaLights · 17/02/2022 01:20

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Translation for screenshot above:

Q4. Can a girls school exclude girls who identify as male?

A. No.

Q5. Can a girls school refuse to admit a girl who identifies as male?
A. No

Q6. Can a girls school refuse to admit a boy who identifies as male.

A. Yes.

What about:

Can a girls school refuse to admit a boy who identifies as a female?

Lovelyricepudding · 17/02/2022 00:19

Girls schools are not set up for mixed sees - there are only girls changing rooms for example.

Enough4me · 16/02/2022 23:59

It clearly is not in the best interest of girls to admit boys on the understanding that they are the same as girls i.e. genuine trans, when there is no definition for genuine trans... because it's all made up.

I may as well take my cat along to my DDs school, at least she's female.

Swear · 16/02/2022 23:52

This is his key argument:
"single-sex schools are able to admit pupils of the opposite legal sex in exceptional circumstances without losing their single-sex status. A recognised example of this is a single-sex school that admits children of members of staff irrespective of sex. There is no obvious reason why this exception could not be used by schools to allow trans children to attend single-sex schools which align with their gender identity rather than their legal sex."

So he is saying that girls' schools can accept transgirls (boys identifying as girls) without jeopardising their charitable status as single sex schools. So the argument will be that they are being transphobic etc in not doing this.

Swear · 16/02/2022 23:47

He says that girls' schools are allowed not to admit a trans girl (a boy who identiifies as a girl). But that they have the option of admitting such a child as an exception.

PamDenick · 16/02/2022 21:40

Schools DO discriminate in the grounds of age.
You can’t be 33 and ask to join Year 7.

Lovelyricepudding · 16/02/2022 21:26

I read twitter (but am not on it which is probably as well) and someone was posting that because you can't get GRC till 18 so school would be discriminating on basis of age. Someone else pointed out they didn't think age applied in schools and was told it did, was about proportionately, age discrimination applied to everyone and he knew as his job was law. I wish I could have directed this law professional to section 84 of the Equality Act - age discrimination is explicitly excluded as a protected characteristics with regard to schools. (Probably best I can't be drawn into such a game of pigeon chess though).

Datun · 16/02/2022 21:21

Is he trying to get this in before the EHRC clarify their advice on single sex facilities?

I really don't think that his authority over how to uphold the equality act is going to trump theirs.

You can discriminate on the grounds of sex, and also gender reassignment. Of course.

It must be both fair to people with the other protected characteristics and justifiable. Which isn't really very hard.

Goatsaregreat · 16/02/2022 21:21

I'm not sure it takes schools much further as it highlights numerous issues which have not been tested by the Courts. Many of the legal principles he addresses also apply to other protected characteristics. So if you insert girls or Black & other ethnic minority or religious groups, you can apply much of the guidance to them. So discrimination via a uniform policy guidance applies (and has already been tested in the courts) to other protected groups and schools have to bear all groups in mind.

The elephant in the room is whether girls and their education are to be relegated to the role of support humans / services for confused boys? Must girls be forced to undress in front of "trans girls" in order to validate their identity in a shower or changing room (which a court believes applies to women prisoners) or not?
He does advise schools to think these things through carefully. If a school considers the rights of all the protected groups (ignoring the trans tops everything demands) then they can plan resources to ensure that girls have privacy and safety from boys (no matter how they identify) while boys self identifying as girls have their own safe spaces. If a school can demonstrate how they've thought and planned for these competing needs, then he does say this can stand up in court.

The threats to the status of single sex schools are depressing. When you look at the long and honourable history of education for girls it's tragic that it's under threat from men. But - here we are in upside down land where so much that women fought for, men are determined to claim for themselves.

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