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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'There are no sex-based rights'

116 replies

lifeissweet · 15/02/2022 05:41

Has anyone noticed that this is the position of the month for February? I am seeing it said repeatedly on Twitter, but I am not sure what point they are trying to make.

They seem to be quoting anti-discrimination legislation to suggest that introducing equal pay laws...etc 'brought an end to sex segregation' and that the Equality Act does not confer rights on anyone.

Does that slightly shoot them in the foot, though? If women have no rights by virtue of being women (and I would argue they absolutely do - the right to be protected from discrimination is a right - as are rights around maternity, which are also women's rights) then surely, they have no rights either.

And isn't it a weird thing when people go scrabbling around trying to find legal get-out clauses to excuse transgressing boundaries? We shouldn't need statutes to make people behave with common sense and decency.

What's the best way to counter this argument?

OP posts:
RVN123 · 15/02/2022 11:19

And this is exactly why the fuckwittery that is going on with language needs to be nailed down.
If we can't define a woman as an adult human female (and we all know what that means) in LAW then this shitshow will go on and on.
If we have no definition then we have no rights of our own, as anyone can become a woman.

The rest would follow naturally if the meaning of the word woman was protected and defined.

Can I walk into a nursery and declare that I'm now 3 years old? Why not? Why do we tryst the evidence of our eyes in that situation but not in this one?

As for the man who declared himself a wrongly identified woman at birth - this is what happens when these illnesses are allowed to flourish and are actually encouraged by the medical establishment.

And as for those chanting that there are no sex based rights - carry on. It shows you up for the mysogynistic woman hating jealous bitter little brainwashed lemmings that you are, and turns a lot of otherwise neutral women onto what is happening here.

Artichokeleaves · 15/02/2022 11:13

And while I'm sitting with my mouth open wondering what exactly was that person smoking, I'd like to know do they extend it to TW's right to dignity being debatable?

Or did they say the word 'women' meaning only 'adult human females'?

Goatsaregreat · 15/02/2022 11:12

This is the escalating trans activist batshit overreach. It's extremist anti women stuff and centres creeps who are determined to override women and girl's boundaries.

Another one saying No.

Artichokeleaves · 15/02/2022 11:04

women's right to dignity is 'a woolly concept'

Just when you think you've seen this political movement reached the zenith of misogyny, gynephobia and absolute determination to use female humans and destroy all boundaries in their way to do so...

they take it one step further.

Done with 'kind'. Done with 'dogwhistle'. Done with the whole damn mess of bullshit. No.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/02/2022 10:28

The gaslighting is not a bug, it's a feature. You could read a hundred blog posts like that.

TheGreatATuin · 15/02/2022 10:23

@lifeissweet

On further inspection, it would seem that this is why it is a flavour of the month argument

rgellman.medium.com/there-is-no-such-thing-as-sex-based-rights-in-the-uk-140554a2c42c

Wow. That article.

The more experienced will proudly refer to “The Equality Act” and how it protects “single SEX spaces”, with the reader almost forced to hear the word “sex” shouted by an angry woman demanding to see the manager

Especially like this. Nice casual bit of sexism there.

The rest of it is amazing tbh. They go into quite a bit of detail about the history of single sex spaces, and then somehow conclude that the reason they exist in the first place is to discriminate against women, and it should be the work of feminists to dismantle them.

It's one of the most arse-about-face articles I've ever seen.

lifeissweet · 15/02/2022 10:18

I've just read it and it has all of the usual bollocks:

  • drawing parallels with racism
  • 'women have been trying to break down sex segregation and insist on being involved in politics, so therefore, they want everything to be mixed-sex, including toilets' (always toilets)
  • women's right to dignity is 'a woolly concept'

But it could sound reasonable to the clueless, so I guess that's why people are emboldened to profess that women have no rights so can get back in our box.

OP posts:
lifeissweet · 15/02/2022 10:09

On further inspection, it would seem that this is why it is a flavour of the month argument

rgellman.medium.com/there-is-no-such-thing-as-sex-based-rights-in-the-uk-140554a2c42c

OP posts:
drwitch · 15/02/2022 10:08

@TheGreatATuin I see this but I think the difference here is clarity. Changing the meaning of the word "woman" or "female" makes it harder to express our understanding of the world (which is why the orwellian analogy is used to often).

The term sex based rights (to me) is unclear because it could imply that we have more rights than men and like dinosaurs want to hoard them Grin. The reality is of course that the law (in the UK) gives us a) some protection against being unfairly treated because of our sex and b) some protections that mitigate against our reduced rights and freedoms in society and the economy due to the fact that we are physically weaker, give birth and (most importantly) are treated by many as second class citizens

TheCurrywurstPrion · 15/02/2022 09:54

Now, we're being told that trans women are female too and saying 'female' is a dogwhistle.

Indeed! So much so that Adele is assumed to be anti-trans for simply using that word within a context you’d assume it would be entirely unremarkable, because the category that used that word had been removed.

TheGreatATuin · 15/02/2022 09:49

@drwitch

I know I'm a minority on here but I don't think sex based rights is useful framing. I would rather use protections, mitigations etc. It has a clearer fit with the equality act and does not play into the hands of being saying we are asking for something like apartheid
I get where you're coming from with that, but I don't think it's going to make much difference what words we use. If we stop saying sex-based rights and say protections, then that'll just be called a dogwhistle instead, and will be somehow twisted. Take the word 'woman'. A lot of people started trying to avoid it when trying to discuss women's issues and used 'female' instead. Now, we're being told that trans women are female too and saying 'female' is a dogwhistle. We can change our language to try not to offend anyone or have it twisted, but if the intention is there to be offended, then it's never going to work.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/02/2022 09:38

I thought the exceptions under the EA had a very explicit example of where actual sex could proportionately override a GRA legal sex - rape services for women?

They do, but they will say because that isn't guaranteed you can't call it a "right".

TheCurrywurstPrion · 15/02/2022 09:31

I thought the exceptions under the EA had a very explicit example of where actual sex could proportionately override a GRA legal sex - rape services for women?
I thought there was also explicit allowance for female only sport?
And, of course, the inheritance of titles. Men for sure have sex-based rights in that case, don't they.

These things do exist, but it’s a very complex distinction to try and make on Twitter, and even more so when debating with people outside the UK.

QuinkWashable · 15/02/2022 09:31

Well, yes, in the dictionary, and to feminists, and to sociologists, and to philosophers, linguists - entirely depends on context

Of course common 'polite' usage has muddled it, as did the GRA a little bit (although not as much as they'd want you to believe), and of course those with such an agenda muddle it purpose as part of their word games.

Which is why I'm always very clear that I mean sex (even to Odeon when answering a recent survey about my visit to the cinema - male and female are not genders, it's fine to use the word 'sex')

VioletLemon · 15/02/2022 09:28

I might be mistaken but it sounds very much like men of various types trying to erode the rights of all women in order to exponentially increase the rights of all men, but mostly shouty white privileged men...

DomesticatedZombie · 15/02/2022 09:24

Maybe so, but is there a clear definition making explicit the difference between 'sex' and 'gender'?

QuinkWashable · 15/02/2022 09:22

It's yet more word games - it's honestly all they have.

Redefining the word 'Woman' out from under us so now they say they're allowed in anything labelled for women, whilst simultaneously saying that there's nothing actually for women like menstrual products, as anyone can have periods.

It's just like my 8 year old loving asking me questions like "what's one plus one" and when I say 2, he say "no, a window", playing silly idiots with language to distract you and avoid having to actually think about the issue instead.

ErrolTheDragon · 15/02/2022 09:20

@DomesticatedZombie

It's a necessary corollary of making legal sex falsifiable - you can't actually base things that are predicated on biological sex depend on it.

Well, this is the very crux of the issue with the EA/GRA clash, isn't it? Is there no mechanism for fixing when one law undermines another law?

I thought the exceptions under the EA had a very explicit example of where actual sex could proportionately override a GRA legal sex - rape services for women? I thought there was also explicit allowance for female only sport? And, of course, the inheritance of titles. Men for sure have sex-based rights in that case, don't they.
DomesticatedZombie · 15/02/2022 09:15

It's a necessary corollary of making legal sex falsifiable - you can't actually base things that are predicated on biological sex depend on it.

Well, this is the very crux of the issue with the EA/GRA clash, isn't it? Is there no mechanism for fixing when one law undermines another law?

FrancescaContini · 15/02/2022 09:12

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It’s simply another bad-faith debating technique. They know they can’t justify removing our rights, so they pretend we don’t have them.

This.

Also agree with this. Very bad faith.
TheCurrywurstPrion · 15/02/2022 09:08

@drwitch

I know I'm a minority on here but I don't think sex based rights is useful framing. I would rather use protections, mitigations etc. It has a clearer fit with the equality act and does not play into the hands of being saying we are asking for something like apartheid
I don’t think you’re particularly in a minority, but the OP specifically mentioned Twitter, where shorthand, concise arguments are often in use.

The apartheid argument is easily dismissed unless they are arguing for the removal of sex-based segregation altogether. Mostly they are arguing for the preservation of apartheid, plus the right for a select few to choose which space they want to use, regardless of the needs of others.

Tanith · 15/02/2022 09:03

I've assumed it's because they're being advised from the US (as they have been in the past).
US law is different to English and Scottish law and they never seem to understand that, nor will they accept it when this is pointed out.

Signalbox · 15/02/2022 08:57

@TheAbbotOfUnreason

I pointed this out to one tra on twitter and they said that maternity rights aren’t sex-based because men and non binary people experience pregnancy too

Pregnant NB people and men are of the female sex. They can identify as whatever gender they like, they can’t identify out of their sex.

Well, yes this is why it's faith based. It doesn't matter if you argue logic they just come back at you with ideological absurdity. TWAW TWAF
Polly99 · 15/02/2022 08:42

By that analysis there are also no human rights because some people identify as fairies, cats or aliens. People spouting this shit are dingbats.

NecessaryScene · 15/02/2022 08:34

They can identify as whatever gender they like, they can’t identify out of their sex.

Presumably this is more legal word play following on from the fuck-up caused by the Gender Recognition Act. As that changes legal sex, then things like maternity leave can't be restricted by legal sex, because some who have changed their legal sex may still need it due to their biological sex.

But that in turn is (roughly) why Freddie McConnell can't expect to not be a mother - that's also decoupled from legal sex. Someone of either legal sex can be a mother - as long as they're biologically female.

It's a necessary corollary of making legal sex falsifiable - you can't actually base things that are predicated on biological sex depend on it.

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