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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

High Court Battle - pronouns

187 replies

PigeonLittle · 14/02/2022 01:18

Not sure if this is being discussed here, couldn't see it after a brief look.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10507853/Christian-doctor-David-Mackereth-sacked-trans-views-fight-High-Court.html

OP posts:
Musomama1 · 29/06/2022 14:14

Isn't this like that cake shop thing in Ireland? The Christian owners were found to be in the wrong.

But then aren't the Dr's views woriads? From a GC point of view and protected in the workplace?

Have nothing but sympathy for him, saw him being bullied on daytime TV by this dreadful TR person.

achillestoes · 29/06/2022 13:55

It’s definitely linked to Christian belief. God made man and woman, and made woman different to man. Forcing someone who holds that belief to say a person is a woman when they are a man represents an interference with their religious beliefs. It doesn’t matter that some Christians don’t mind; others do, for the honest reason of their religious conscience.

Circumferences · 29/06/2022 13:52

Sending good luck to the appeal application

snoochieboochies · 29/06/2022 13:51

Jewel1968 · 14/02/2022 07:29

I don't understand how it links to religion? Am I missing something? I had expected the argument to be around science.

Because the Bible specifically references man and woman, children of god, and holds this harmonious duo in high regard. This is similar to our observations. Scientific method doesn't need to be employed to know people are male and female, as we can simply observe it (only part of scientific method, sans any testing) It's empirical evidence; we are male and female. Humans can't change sex, again observed. No tests needed.

achillestoes · 29/06/2022 13:29

Dr Mackereth lost his case and is appealing again. The EAT judged that his beliefs do meet the Grainger criteria and are ‘protected’, but his employer (the DWP) didn’t necessarily err in deciding that his beliefs couldn’t be manifested in the workplace without causing offence. Basically.

achillestoes · 29/06/2022 13:02

There’s a rumour this decision will be handed down today.

SolasAnla · 18/02/2022 10:24

[quote vivariumvivariumsvivaria]@SolasAnla that's a lot of words to demonstrate a lack of understanding of what the thread is about.[/quote]
Bloke claims to be 'sacked' because the employer claim that it has a contractual right to insist he has to use title's and pronoun's therefore using the name of a 'service user' plus "you" was not sufficient to do the job.

100% can be a vital element of doing the job. Employer failed to include a clause for title and pronoun use in the contract.

Decision was that law (and employer policy) gives everybody has a right of "ownership" of a title and a style and a pronoun others must use to describe them. So lawfully 'sacked'.

Decision position "dignity and respect" obliges sex specific language used to indicate one sex be manifested by CitizenU to describe a member of the other sex.
So when sex is known
•she= female/woman
•he= male/man
•they=???

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 18/02/2022 01:47

@SolasAnla that's a lot of words to demonstrate a lack of understanding of what the thread is about.

SolasAnla · 18/02/2022 00:31

Motorina
In practice it's rare, and I'm amazed his A+E job allowed him to decline to treat all trans patients, which is what the tribunal determination says happened.

Had not treated and declined are 2 very different conclusions.

Section 70 to 73 did not provide evidence of a decline to treat all trans patients just a statement about a remembered conversation which was disputed.

The tribunal determination was that OH said this happened.

If OH's version was accurate, OH should have raised this potential refusal to preform any assessments for a vulnerable cohort of applicants. OH should not be looking for an exemption from a trainee who would use a name but not 'wrong sex' pronouns and or titles rather OH should have been asking HR to review the employment offer.

Providing treatment while offending the recipient in not optimal but possible.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus
white patient refused an South Asian consultant anaesthetist
.. that he'd done so to some extent because he felt that his employers in the Trust couldn't be relied upon to have his back.

Is this not informed consent in action?
"Person X is the only one who can do the proceedure, without this proceedure you can die"
"I know, but people with [Z] cant touch me"

And its why the process is before the paitent is legally incapacitated get to sign a "we can do anything if it saves your life" consent for operations.

Without consent the HCP would be engaging in an assault so had to hand off. The assault bit is dismissed by TRA who claim specific or limiting consent can be ignored.

Then the Trust have 3 (?) options
•refuse to provide an alternative at all
•provide an alternative once one becomes available (but other staff scheduled could refuse to work)
•obtain a court order to allow the consultant provide the service.

The Trust are unlikely write a policy document to position the incident as the male paitent seeing a female doctor demanding a male doctor and being told he is mistaken as the consultant is male.

Brighton Trust policy was that a woman objecting to a male who identified as a woman on a ward was to be treated by staff as if she was a White woman objecting to a Black woman on the ward and is to be told by staff there is no man on the ward (The racist man = black woman trope was accepted/invisable). It was a direct instruction by a Employer to an Employee to lie to a patient.

The Hospital also needed a system so She/They Jane (a male with GRC) will not end up treat John who is a "female staff only consent" patient, all without disclosing Jane's PC to other staff or John. The Trust has liability issues if it and/or Jane gets sued by John and Jane can sue as an employee with a PC.

Thats why the wording sex or gender became so important in the Scottish Rape legislation.

Can a male insert objects and body parts inside the Witness who consented on the condition the State appointed expert witness was female and that male not commit an (sexual) assault?

On right to use a pronoun v. a right to have a specific pronoun/word spoken by another person within the context of manifestations of belief.

Joe Bloggs, male, not married & never was, no mental issues, is not within the protected characteristic of gender reassignment (as male is not proposing to undergo, is not undergoing or has not undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the male's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex).

Decides, as an act of civil disobedience, to use the title Mrs, first name IdoBlowjobs, surname BlowjobsAreFun, pronoun they/them.

What legislation provides Joe the right to be addressed by these: the name(s), the title and the pronoun.

To rephrase this what legislation obliges CitizenU to speak someone else's chosen name, chosen title and chosen pronoun.

The judgement argues/concludes that there is legislation which obliges CitizenU to use/speak pronouns and or titles and also that CitizenU has no right to silence.

I dont thing the law as written will support either conclusion.

Point of order has the Court supporting first party verified title and pronoun documentation for Emma or Burton J or Langstaff?

Anyway that leaves the employment contract with attached policy and proceedure.

Policy is the written rule, the internal legislation of an organisation. The umbrella. Per policy 'aim/action A' is deliberately included, deliberatly excluded or not considered while the policy was formulated. So include and exclude are under the umbrella, while not considered is out in the rain.

Process is the way the task is done there can be many processes which results in the task been "done".
Documented process is the way the task is done to ensure the policy is followed narrowing the way the task is done to a single method. Organisations use it for human resource management quality control.

Training is primarily about process.

Section 48 OH indicated that OH would use/document pronoun other than she/he if requested.
If Meow is requested are all subsequent staff legally and/or contractually obliged to use this pronoun?

** Section 50 evidence is presented that in 2017 the DWP process failed.
HH apparently managed a compliant without referring to the written policy (no151) or a review of any written process documentation.

No process documentation was created even though the GRA 2004 Section 22 has data disclosure obligations.

NB if HH had investigated at that stage the matter should have been escalated up to the ranks. Clear written process which aligned with the written policy should have been produced and handed out at the training.

The enforcement then relys on unwritten policy no 151 is silent on titles and pronouns and unwritten procedure, just a general understandings of what should be done.

If the review and update had happened there would be a clear contractual obligation of follow the policy and get paid to do so. That could be a lawfull contractual term.

Adam as male and Eve as female, Created in God's Image, Original Sin, Marraige, Babies as branding, an origin story and/or actual belief is a foundation teaching to Jewish, Christian and Islamic education.

No clear policy no clear procedure indicates no consideration of PC religion and beleif.

Jux · 16/02/2022 23:12

I was under the impression that very few tw had GRCs. I think I would find it easier to use preferred pronouns if a GRC had been obtained, but otherwise it would be very worrying.

ScrollingLeaves · 16/02/2022 18:27

“Jux

Vis a vis lying.

If you've just sworn on the Bible to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, then you can hardly be ordered to lie can you? If makes no sense and turns the law inside out.”

And isn’t a Gender Recognition Certificate, or something related, a “Legal Fiction”? I am confused about where the legal fiction applies but think it is worrying a fiction can be legal.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 16/02/2022 12:58

@Jux

Vis a vis lying.

If you've just sworn on the Bible to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, then you can hardly be ordered to lie can you? If makes no sense and turns the law inside out.

Up until recently this was almost exactly what the Equal Treatment Bench Book advised judges and magistrates to impose.
Jux · 16/02/2022 12:43

Vis a vis lying.

If you've just sworn on the Bible to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, then you can hardly be ordered to lie can you? If makes no sense and turns the law inside out.

macj1 · 16/02/2022 12:11

Maybe, as a Christian, he's just choosing not to lie.
Remember the late, great Magdalen Burns, 'I'd rather be rude than a f**king liar.'

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 16/02/2022 11:19

I'd like to understand more about these ancient texts for those reasons too, @SpinningTheSeedsOfLove (great name, by the way)

It's interesting that Posie P and Exulansic both have theological backgrounds. I suspect studying how women were viewed 2-4k years ago seeds many a feminist.

SpinningTheSeedsOfLove · 15/02/2022 22:17

[Simplification warning] As far as I'm aware the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy (that have been mentioned above) are not only Christian texts. They are part of the Hebrew Bible and central to Judaism, and these laws of Moses are referenced in the Quran.

I don't see why or how the 'Christian right' are the only people being framed as connected to these books of the Old Testament.

If there is 'belief' in Mosaic Law it is relevant to Jusaism and Islam as well as Christianity. Did the original tribunal even acknowledge this?

Just musing, really. Ancient religions are gruesomely fascinating, as are the ways in which modern societies attempt to assimilate and (re)negotiate their manifestations in law and social practice alongside some equally questionable contemporary beliefs about women and their bodies. So much oppression, over thousands of years.

Motorina · 15/02/2022 19:52

@SolasAnla your posts have repeatedly shown that you either have not read, or have not understood, the determination, the reasons for the tribunal decision, or the accommodations they considered. Nor are you willing to read or engage with anyone else's perspectives. Given that, I see little point in engaging with you further.

SolasAnla · 15/02/2022 19:39

Motorina
So he refuses to use people's chosen names and titles.

Can you please point to the numbered paragraph which stated that he refused to use or said he would not use the name of any applicant?

Motorina
Society has decided that an applicant can give up some rights in exchange an applicant gets a portion of the redistributed wealth.
I do not believe that people on benefits should have to give up the right to be treated with dignity and respect.
I do not think it okay to address someone on benefits in a way that even Dr Mackareth agrees is offensive, and expect them to accept it as their lot because they're receiving a share of the communal wealth.

Assumptions, assumptions...

Applicants give up the right to medical privacy to provide evidence that they qualify for a specific benefit.

Is dignity and respect sole dependent on a forced affirmation of a belief?
The applicant gets (or should get) the distribution on the basis of meeting the qualifying criteria.
Its not communal wealthy its redistributed wealth from some of a community to others in that community for a communal benefit.

However this case is not about the applicant.

Its about the Employer and employee relationship plus the legislation around the employees rights.

Can the Employee do the job.
Can the Employer make reasonable adjustment to accomadate a PC.
Should the Employer be forced make the adjustment or be allowed sack the employee.

The Service Provider has an opportunity to collect the applicants PC's prior to any appointment.

In this process the employee is an auditor with specialist training.

There was no evidence to imply that the core tasks would not be carried out.

No evidence that the employee would weigh the evidence presented differently for
• women who stated they were men
or
• men who stated they were women
from other women or men.

Dignity and respect goes (or should go) both ways.

In this ruling shows that belief is the poor relation of PC's. Its allowed provided its not integrated into the life of the employee.
Apply that to other PC's its acceptable to be a pregnant radiologist but the employer can sack her if she objects to handling radioactive material.
The woman in a wheelchair can be sacked as her office is allocated to the 3rd floor in the building with no lift.

Demanding that an individual accept and endorse that a factual statement is false and that the opposite is in fact true as a condition of employment is not a sign of a society which can be multicultural.

owlinnahat
I think@SolasAnlasadly speaks for many people when it comes to the benefits system which is why it's got such a terrible reputationthe assumption that benefits claimants are not entitled to compassion or dignity, not to mention the suggestion that they are all fraudsters anyway.

Odd that you choose to speak for me and decided on putting words in my mouth.
Was that intentional?
Or did you not realise that was what you did there?

Your mistake is to give the title "Doctor" more weight than the role, which is loss prevention officer. The job comes with a "posh" title, good pay and the dress code is "business smart".

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 15/02/2022 17:30

You can't refuse to treat someone due to a protected characteristic. So I can't decline to treat black patients, or gay patients.

Do people recall the incident a while back in which a white patient refused an South Asian consultant anaesthetist (iirc) and requested a white anaesthetist. The consultant complied and transferred the patient to another colleague. However, he detailed on Twitter that he'd done so to some extent because he felt that his employers in the Trust couldn't be relied upon to have his back.

There was then a flurry of HCPs saying that Trusts should be relied upon and that they (and others) would have refused to accept the care of the patient.

Racism like this is an egregious example. I was troubled at the time because I anticipated that it was not implausible that women who requested a female HCP would also find themselves discharged without care.

I don't have an easy answer. I'm too aware of unintended but predictable consequences.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/02/2022 17:26

There are some areas I can be very black and white about ('No men in women's prisons') and some I can't. And I think where I fall on any particular issue depends on where I see the balance of power as lying. Prisoners are vulnerable; patients are vulnerable; benefits claimants are vulnerable. So, generally, if there is a conflict of rights then I would tend to prioritise those.

As I said, I do completely understand your position, I just come down on the side of no compelled speech and I really do think pandering to this ideology is harmful overall.

Motorina · 15/02/2022 17:23

For me it's such a nuanced area.

I'm appalled by how many teenage girls are identifying as trans, and that schools seem to blindly accept it.

I'm equally appalled by the thought that a gender-fluid teen might have to wait longer in A+E because the available doctor didn't want to see them.

The three letter acronym we are not allowed to say leaves me feeling sick, to be honest. And the thought that middle aged men might access female changign rooms and relish the sense of 'gender euphoria' that brings leaves me feeling angry and helpless.

But I'm also horrified by the thought that that middle aged man might have care for his heart attack delayed because of the religious views of A+E staff.

I entirely agree with @vivariumvivariumsvivaria that stifling debate has been hugely damaging. For both sides, actually.

There are some areas I can be very black and white about ('No men in women's prisons') and some I can't. And I think where I fall on any particular issue depends on where I see the balance of power as lying. Prisoners are vulnerable; patients are vulnerable; benefits claimants are vulnerable. So, generally, if there is a conflict of rights then I would tend to prioritise those.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/02/2022 17:22

IMO the reasonable adjustment for both positions was that Mackereth found someone else to see the patient, as discussed.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/02/2022 17:21

It's always a balance.

Yes. We've mentioned the right not to participate in an abortion. Do you think a HCP should be able to opt out of say, assisting with giving a female child who identifies as a boy a mastectomy, as happens in the US? Or in fact any sex reassignment surgery?

It's always a balance, the difference is where you draw the line.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/02/2022 17:14

Definitely!

Motorina · 15/02/2022 17:13

I've got splinters on my arse from the fence sitting, which smarts a bit, but I agree with both points of view and am enjoying this discussion.

Agreed.

Here's a non-EA compliant statement coming up. I can't imagine a discussion of this nature not descending into abuse on the typical, male-dominated discussion forum. One up for mumsnet!

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