What can I do about gender neutral toilets in college?

mightbeasillyquestion · 2022-02-13T22:25:37+00:00

First off, sorry if this has already been asked but most searches seem to be about workplaces or secondary schools and I'm not sure if the legislation is the same, apologies if it is. I am in Wales if that makes it any different. I am attending an FE college and there are no single-sex bathrooms available at all. There is some downstairs where one side is male and one female but the washing area is still communal, all the others are completely mixed. Firstly, I am confused as to whether this is actually legal as most google searches seem to lead to information about secondary schools. If it is illegal then what can I actually do about it, if anything at all? I have spoken to other girls and women there and they also feel uncomfortable with this. The toilets are the kind where the cubicle door touches the floor but the washing area is communal, I am confused as to whether you just need the enclosed room or if you need the sink in there as well.

thevassal · 14/02/2022 16:42

@mightbeasillyquestion

Also to the person who said that some young women are accepting of transwomen in their spaces, are they really? I know of a few people who claim to believe TWAW at no cost but when it comes down to it they are not. One of my friends who is a staunch TWAW, lesbians can have penis and like penis, people are who they say they are, etc doesn't actually believe this. As in, I have asked her if she felt comfortable with the toilets, before knowing how extreme her views were, and she said no and that she avoids using them. I think a lot of women who say TWAW and let them into our spaces are saying it for brownie points and to look accepting, including the younger ones. I think there's very few who genuinely believe it and aren't just trying to be nice to them as a lot of women are taught. But women's safety should be above being nice. Sorry for the rant.

That was me and the ones I've spoken to about this issue (both in real life (I was a union rep on my very large govt workplace council when we discussed changing toilets) and on forums) yes, honestly are fine with it. They aren't doing it for woke points they honestly are not bothered. Like I said,when I was younger I wouldnt have cared either. Now I can also see that the issue goes beyond my personal feelings to those who are more vulnerable/more uncomfortable than me which is why I generally don't support them (even though personally I quite like proper e.g. fully enclosed cubicle shared facilities). Not a fan of the repurposed ones that just take away from female only facilities and don't meet the official criteria.

I don't think its great to refuse to believe someone could feel differently to you. Its fine to disagree with people but very dismissive to say you know how they actually feel better than they do.

jellyfrizz · 14/02/2022 16:39

E.g. this toilet is for females of all genders.

jellyfrizz · 14/02/2022 16:38

I wonder if we will ever find a solution.

Single-sex, gender-neutral toilets.

Original poster

mightbeasillyquestion · 14/02/2022 16:26

@Justkeeppedaling I will have to ask if there is a student union. It says there is one on the website but they are listed for the different campuses owned by the college, not the one I attend. Maybe they just haven't updated it though since it's quite new still.

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Original poster

mightbeasillyquestion · 14/02/2022 16:21

@MoltenLasagne that sounds awful. I hope the girl got help after that and is alright these days. Absolutely disgusting that she was victim blamed, and even worse that it happened in the first place.

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Justkeeppedaling · 14/02/2022 16:15

Do you have a Students' Union? You could start with them.

Artichokeleaves · 14/02/2022 16:09

They will also care about equal opportunities for all students, so I would make a big deal about how this affects Muslim students.

It will not just be some Muslim women students affected. It will also quite obviously and predictably be for any college with the faintest scooby about inclusion:

Some Orthodox Jewish women
Some Gypsy/Roma/Traveller women
Some Women with Autism
Some Women with trauma who are survivors of abuse, DV, DA, VAWG and CSA
Some Women with PTSD
Some physically disabled women who may struggle to close doors
Some women on site with young children who may struggle to close doors

And that's aside from women who just want dignity, privacy and cannot use a space where male people are regardless of how the male person chooses to identify or the male person's feelings because the female person wanting the loo is there to meet their needs, not to provide care for the male person.

Those women, in percentage of population, are likely to be significantly higher than the percentage of male people requiring an alternative space to the male provision, so a reason would be needed as to why this small proportion of male people are provided for but the larger percentage of female people not? Direct discrimination on basis of sex.

Failure to anticipate and provide for obvious inclusion and access needs of females in women's facilities? Also discriminatory.

The whole point of women's facilities is that they must include and be accessible to all women. Not just the ones who were born male.

MoltenLasagne · 14/02/2022 16:07

I've told this story before about the risks of mixed sex toilets. Many years ago I was at uni in France. There was a new literature block built which for some reason only had mixed sex toilets. Initially I used the toilets without really thinking about it, but I had a couple of incidents with male students standing a little bit too close when I was coming out of the cubicles so you had to squeeze past, leering, that type of behaviour. Nothing out right and all within the bounds of plausible deniability, but intended to be intimidating. So after a month or so I switched to using the female toilets by the canteen.

Within a few months hardly any female students were using the mixed sex toilets despite literature being a female dominated subject and the toilets became a de facto male space. In the summer term a girl was assaulted in the toilets, and the overwhelming response was "well why did she use those toilets?"

Terfydactyl · 14/02/2022 15:55

@Masdintle

Mixed sex and unisex are different things though. Unisex is, I believe, completely self contained facilities to be used by one person at a time with a lockable door, whereas mixed sex means several people can use the facilities at one time - perhaps separate cubicles (of course) but communal sinks.

Nope, I've seen cubicle style womens changed into gender neutral by way of a sign. That makes them mixed sex but some people use weasley words like gender neutral to hide the nature of the change. Plus I've yet to see the mens which is better set up for mixed sex to be renamed. Only ever the womens, up to now anyway.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 14/02/2022 15:51

@Ereshkigalangcleg

1 in 5 women have experienced sexual assault or violence (source: Rape Crisis)

I'd like to see where that figure comes from. I've seen figures that 1 in 5 women have experienced rape, more have experienced other types of sexual assault that are easier to get away with in public.

I was startled that Rape Crisis gave such a low figure, and I too would like to see the original document. I’d believe 1 in 5 women (at least) have been raped and/ or assaulted. As others have pointed out, most women have experienced sexual harassment.

There was never any need to remove single-sex facilities. Just add a third space for those who don’t want to use their own.

beastlyslumber · 14/02/2022 15:48

[quote mightbeasillyquestion]@beastlyslumber I have a tutor who I could ask, thanks. A lot of my lecturers are supporters of trans ideology. The college have been giving out pronoun badges and some staff have been wearing these, I haven't seen the tutor wear one yet so hopefully she will be understanding of my concern. I already made a complaint a few months ago about sexual harassment, not in the toilets just in the college in general and it was taken pretty seriously. Although I'm not too sure on this issue as like I said the college seems to have fallen for transgender preachings. Hopefully they will take it as seriously.

@Blogblogblogblog I never thought of it in that way. That's a very good point you made though.[/quote]
That sucks, sorry to hear that.

My advice would be to not frame it as a trans issue at all, but about access to education. Things the college will be concerned about is the retention and achievement of students, so if you can raise a question about students not coming to college because of the lack of facilities, that would be good. They will also care about equal opportunities for all students, so I would make a big deal about how this affects Muslim students. If you raise the trans issue you may well not get anywhere, so I would avoid framing it like that. You can explain that you have no objection to mixed sex toilets but by law they also have to provide single sex spaces.

If you feel up to it, I would also make the point that the person who sexually harrassed you will now be able to share a toilet space with you.

Sorry to hear your lecturers have fallen for this. I guess just keep looking for the ones who don't wear the pronoun badges!

DdraigGoch · 14/02/2022 15:38

@wordsmeansomething

Are you having a bath in a college bathroom? Surely you're just washing your hands/face?

What might they be washing off of their hands? How about blood from a period-related mishap? Just as stated a few posts above yours. Why wouldn't you want them to have privacy and dignity?

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 14/02/2022 15:37

It's such a shame that this is such a difficult conversation to have without people firing accusations at one another. I wonder if we will ever find a solution.

But it’s not difficult or complicated, Cookiemonster! Just put all toilets back the way they were. One set for men, the other for women.

Nobody complained about that, until a tiny number of trans activists wanted males to be allowed into women’s facilities. Now single-sex facilities have been removed without any consultation. I want them back.

SamphiretheStickerist · 14/02/2022 15:34

@wordsmeansomething

Are you having a bath in a college bathroom? Surely you're just washing your hands/face?

There is always one, isn't there?

DdraigGoch · 14/02/2022 15:33

@jellyfrizz

I wonder if we will ever find a solution.

Males need to be more welcoming to gender non-conforming males.

I'm still waiting for any evidence that there is hostility to non-conforming males using male toilets.

DdraigGoch · 14/02/2022 15:27

@Ereshkigalangcleg

1 in 5 women have experienced sexual assault or violence (source: Rape Crisis)

I'd like to see where that figure comes from. I've seen figures that 1 in 5 women have experienced rape, more have experienced other types of sexual assault that are easier to get away with in public.

Not to mention that the number who have been on the receiving end of sexual harassment in any form is as high as 97%.

Blogblogblogblog · 14/02/2022 15:25

Actually this one is better source. 600 rapes reported over 3 years inside school premises. With 190-195 days in school a year, that’s a lot.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-34138287

Blogblogblogblog · 14/02/2022 15:16

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36071502

Blogblogblogblog · 14/02/2022 15:16

With regards to the college taking sexual assaults seriously, ask them to do a risk assessment about mixed sex toilets. Give them this information about schools (which was a few years old) which shows at least 1 rape a day inside school premises.

wordsmeansomething · 14/02/2022 15:10

Are you having a bath in a college bathroom? Surely you're just washing your hands/face?

Thewindwhispers · 14/02/2022 15:08

@jellyfrizz

I wonder if we will ever find a solution.

Males need to be more welcoming to gender non-conforming males.

@jellyfrizz you’re spot on. The transgender activists went in completely the wrong direction with their anger. They attack and invade women’s spaces, when what they should have been doing is challenging the toxic masculinity that refuses to recognise that some men may wish to wear a skirt and make up.

It was such a lost opportunity to challenge gender stereotypes. Instead they embraced them.

Original poster

mightbeasillyquestion · 14/02/2022 15:08

Also to the person who said that some young women are accepting of transwomen in their spaces, are they really? I know of a few people who claim to believe TWAW at no cost but when it comes down to it they are not. One of my friends who is a staunch TWAW, lesbians can have penis and like penis, people are who they say they are, etc doesn't actually believe this. As in, I have asked her if she felt comfortable with the toilets, before knowing how extreme her views were, and she said no and that she avoids using them. I think a lot of women who say TWAW and let them into our spaces are saying it for brownie points and to look accepting, including the younger ones. I think there's very few who genuinely believe it and aren't just trying to be nice to them as a lot of women are taught. But women's safety should be above being nice. Sorry for the rant.

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Thewindwhispers · 14/02/2022 15:05

@maddy68 when I’m changing a tampon and get blood on my hands, I want to be able to wash the blood off in a sink without a man watching me. I don’t see what’s so difficult to understand about that.

Original poster

mightbeasillyquestion · 14/02/2022 15:00

@beastlyslumber I have a tutor who I could ask, thanks. A lot of my lecturers are supporters of trans ideology. The college have been giving out pronoun badges and some staff have been wearing these, I haven't seen the tutor wear one yet so hopefully she will be understanding of my concern. I already made a complaint a few months ago about sexual harassment, not in the toilets just in the college in general and it was taken pretty seriously. Although I'm not too sure on this issue as like I said the college seems to have fallen for transgender preachings. Hopefully they will take it as seriously.

@Blogblogblogblog I never thought of it in that way. That's a very good point you made though.

OP posts:

Artichokeleaves · 14/02/2022 14:56

There are plenty of solutions. It's very easy indeed to have different provisions so that everyone has what they want.

The barrier, let's be honest, is male people refusing to accept or tolerate female people having any space they cannot enter at will and control access to. That's the issue. The absolute intolerance of female people being allowed to have need for spaces and resources of their own. Even after all possible TQ+ and male needs have been multiply provided for, they still will not tolerate a 'no'.

Which is where law comes in. People will not refrain from stealing your car or speeding by good chap/good will to all principles, therefore there are legal boundaries and penalties. There are female people who cannot access facilities unless they are single sex. Male people having tantrums about it is not a reason to exclude them.