TWAW men

Never forget Robin Green.

Its interesting.

I remember a poster years and years back who argued with the whole board that TWAW for nearly the full 40 pages before it got to the topic of his sexuality and how we wouldn't sleep with a TW.

He knew the difference at that fundamental level; and I cant remember what exactly was said to make the scales fall from his eyes. But he realised he was being completely unreasonable to demand all women must view TWAW; but men dont have to see TWAW and yet can proclaim that they do.

We actually had a really good discussion for a while after off thread; he was quite embarrassed about the way he had behaved, and yet gracious enough to admit it.

I have no idea how they do these mental gymnastics but for a lot of the TWAW men; I genuinely think they cant see the cognitive dissonance.

And no one says trans women are women "in the same way" as cis women. No one said there's no differences whatsoever.

Then why not just say 'Transwomen are transwomen' and be proud of that?

It's just that trans women and cis women are both women, even if they're women in a different way.

By the way, the word/prefix 'cis' is considered a derogatory label and totally rejected by many people - women and men - who are assigned it without the basic common decency of ever being asked if they wish to be identified that way. I assume you somehow didn't know that and weren't being deliberately dismissive of other people's identities?

There's more than one way to be a woman.

Then surely there's more than one way to be a man as well? If we acknowledge that 'man' has been used in English since antiquity to refer to an adult biological male, using your own reasoning, why wouldn't being a transwoman be just another way of being a man?

@namitynamechange right? I lolled reading this whole thing. A sex congruent with their sexuality, then. Wonder if the penny is dropping yet for these people, as they seem absolutely perplexed 🤣.

I think the behaviour towards women we are talking about here goes a bit further than just being pro trans rights.

When it comes down to it, I want my feelings, consent and boundaries to be respected. I don't appreciate them being handwaved away, especially by men with no skin in the game, who don't understand how it is to navigate the world as a woman.

If we're happy with men who are working on this issue in our favour

I said myself I was critical of them as well.

These men don't want Transwomen in their bathrooms. They don't want to have to defend TW from aggressive males.

If we're happy with men who are working on this issue in our favour it's important to treat men working on the other side in the same way.

Two other points - it's hardly just men that are on the other side of this. There are plenty of women and some are very much trans rights activists that are very involved, probably more so than regular guy next door men are. And women on here regularly ask why more men don't step up. And some of them say, we think this isn't our fight and we shouldn't stick our noses in, and they get told off.

It's important to listen to the people most involved for all of us, but I don't think we can have it both ways with men, accepting those who agree while telling those who don't they are out of order to have an opinion.

but we all live in society and get to take part in discussions about what is just and true, and in fact have a duty to do so

We do, but the views of people directly affected should always be centred in decisions which will have an impact on them. Including trans people. Not including random men with their overbearing righteousness who have zero direct stake. It's a case of not letting people with more power decide everything for marginalised groups, especially when they belong to a class of people who oppress them.

@MangyInseam That is a good point. Outside of the specific issue of definitions - I think many men have a personal stake in this anyway if they have daughters/women in their lives they care about. Not because caring about the welfare of said women is the same as ownership (before I am scolded for that) but simply because (male or female) its normal and decent to want the people we care about to have safety and dignity.

It's surprising to people who gaslight others about their sexuality.

(from the quoted survey): Surprisingly, among the 127 participants open to dating a trans person, almost half selected a trans person of a gender incongruent with their stated sexual orientation.

Is it that surprising though??? Is it really??

I don't know. If men are meant to be quiet about their views on this, that really implies they should be quiet in both directions, they should also not dispute gender ideology.

That would be quite the own goal on the part of women who dispute it, it's not like we've managed to get all women on side on this question.

In any case, I don't particularly believe in the kinds of politics that says that only the people of an identity group get to decide what is just in relation to that group. Not only is it unworkable and dangerous (who gets to speak for the gender lobby, then?) but we all live in society and get to take part in discussions about what is just and true, and in fact have a duty to do so. It's not like you will find any identity group that is all on one side of an issue anyway.

Also, to the original point, I think 5 minutes on the MN Black MNers board shows white people taking up space there too.

Yes, absolutely, but these progressive men we are discussing would be the first to criticise that, generally.

Suspect many of them are GAMPs. They're attracted to trans women but fiercely resist the idea that they are gay (hence the ubiquitous manly beards) and are consequently outraged that anyone could deny TWAW.

www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=GAMP

"cis females only"

Is it only me that finds that phrase deeply dehumanising? Makes me want to have a shower.

Also, to the original point, I think 5 minutes on the MN Black MNers board shows white people taking up space there too.

No problem.

https://www.them.us/story/cis-trans-dating

Virtually all heterosexuals excluded trans folks from their dating pool: only 1.8% of straight women and 3.3% of straight men chose a trans person of either binary gender. But most non-heterosexuals weren’t down for dating a trans person either, with only 11.5% of gay men and 29% of lesbians being trans-inclusive in their dating preferences. Bisexual/queer/nonbinary participants (these were all combined into one group) were most open to having a trans partner, but even among them, almost half (48%) did not select either ‘trans man’ or ‘trans woman.’

*

Surprisingly, among the 127 participants open to dating a trans person, almost half selected a trans person of a gender incongruent with their stated sexual orientation. For example, 50% of the trans-inclusive straight women and 28% of the trans-inclusive gay men were willing to date a trans woman, even though one wouldn’t expect either straight women or gay men to be attracted to women. Similarly, 50% of trans-inclusive straight men and 69% of trans-inclusive lesbians said they’d date a trans man, even though both groups are presumably only attracted to women. And 33% of the trans-inclusive bisexual/queer participants said they would only date a trans person of one gender but not the other, even though one may expect this group to be attracted to multiple genders.
Digging even deeper into the choices of cis folks willing to date trans people, an interesting pattern of discrimination against trans women in particular emerged among those who would be expected to be attracted to women: 28% of trans-inclusive bisexual/queer/nonbinary folks and 38% of trans-inclusive lesbians said they wouldn’t date a trans woman — only a trans man.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

If you dont mind posting that link. Thankyou in advance.

Transwomen are transwomen. That’s it. There’s nothing wrong with it. Why don’t you celebrate being transwomen rather than trying to appropriate another group’s identities, rights and spaces. You’re deluded if you think otherwise. Unfortunately you’ve been supported in your delusion and that’s a shame. But that’s all that’s happened and it’s falling away now. We all need to move on.

Ooooh I think we’re looking at a full bingo card very quickly with this one…..

I’ve no doubt that predatory lesbians & weaponising infertile women will arrive very soon

Most men would not have a sexual re.ationship with a transwoman though. IIRC at least 95% of men said no. I will try to provide a link to the survey.

They did, I think it was 98% of self identified straight men. I can link it if you don't have it. It was a pro-genderist survey, too.

@ Shinyshingles

Most men would not have a sexual re.ationship with a transwoman though. IIRC at least 95% of men said no. I will try to provide a link to the survey.