Womanface

Sexual objectification is, at its core, a form of humiliation in itself because it originates from female oppression. It is mixed notions of both provocativeness (whore) and innocence (virgin), frigidity (whore in waiting) and promiscuousness. It is every manifestation of ourselves hijacked as intended for males. It basically isn’t about us at all. It’s a power tool, so any art form based in this, not least performed by a man, has difficulty escaping the idea that it’s deeply humiliating.

But Ill be honest, personally I care less about drag comedy than I do about women being raped in prisons, safeguarding issues in schools, over prescription of puberty blockers etc. I know sometimes it looks as if drag is used to normalise the rest, but if you focus too much on that it looks like that's the biggest problem and its easier to dismiss (like if Vladmir's niece was tantruming about putting their shoes on but actually had a broken leg or something).
Doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it/start threads on it. But there is no point (IMO) falling out over it

I do understand, but again - black people (and other groups) also faced (and face) a lot of resistance when they wanted to talk about or fight racism. If there is more conversation around racism now its because people kept talking when they were told to shut up/not to make a big deal out it. That's what women need to do :) (and again luckily lots of us are good at it).
But while I think its tempting to say "if you wouldn't do X you shouldn't do Y" I don't think its a good persuasive technique - the only people it would work on are likely to be people already in that mindset - like the OP who already feels that the woman-face thing is bad and has drawn the connection themselves. Or Dave Chapelle's audience actually.
Plus some of the most virulent sexists are also kinda racist (including the secret ones on the left) - so they would just ignore it anyway.

It's more than 'femininity face' because we can't exactly opt out of having breasts or becoming pregnant and potentially miscarrying or seeking an abortion. All things that drag queens mock.

I don't think my opinion is the only valid one. I spoke about my own experiences. I find the angst around womanface bemusing if anything, similarly to how I find it bemusing when my toddler niece is beside herself about wanting to go to the park but won't sit still long enough to let anyone put her shoes on her to go.

I agree with Namity, I think women are right to question why blackface is now socially unacceptable and how do we convince society drag should also be debated. Is it the same? I actually don't think so. I think drag, rape culture and the objectification and commoditization of womens bodies should become just as socially unnaceptable as what BLM is fighting for with racism and blackface as an example of that.

I think the reason Vladimirs posts get my hackles up is that, even though OP is a person of colour and feels it is comparable, when women agree or discuss they get told off. To me this attitude feels the same as when women get told not to make a big deal about men in womens prisons or sports but fix poverty, world hunger and climate change first.

No. It is ok to discuss womens issues and whether drag and black face are comparable. You don't have to agree but don't dismiss people's feelings as being a 'white womens forum' and therefore whatever your opinion is, is the only valid one. It is divisive and stops people listening to what you are trying to say.

And if black face is socially unacceptable now (it still isn't in my country which is a whole other thing), its because mostly black people spent a lot of time, and effort for years trying to explain why, campaigning, etc etc etc. It wasn't just that people woke up one day and decided racism was bad so let not do it anymore (and I know there is still racism, but in the context of black face). Misogyny, sexism, rape culture are the same - the only way to reduce it is to fight it on its own terms (and luckily there are lots of people on this board and elsewhere doing just that). But we need as many hands on deck as possible.

I suppose the thing is, its impossible to say (with any credibility) "sexism is like racism" if you have only experienced sexism. Likewise I can't insist "woman face is as bad as blackface" if I have only felt the impact of one not the other. So although I think comparing the two could seem like a useful rhetorical technique to make people see it differently, I think direct comparisons aren't a very honest way of talking about the issue and I don't think they should be necessary. If a case is worth making it should be worth making on its own merit if that makes sense. It also, as @VladmirsPoutine has pointed out risks trivialising racism and insulting people who have experienced it. Which is the last thing we should be doing.

Its one of the things I hate about the TRA hitching their cause to feminism, to gay rights, to black civil rights. I know their intention is to further their own cause. My fear is that instead they will pull all the other causes down with them.

I was pretty upset yesterday when the drag queens appeared during Winter Olympic coverage. It was just so unexpected, a bit of an ambush during sport fgs. I turned over and complained to the BBC.

Imo drag is "femininity-face" (taken to extreme distortions obviously), not "woman-face".

There's not much one can do to make your face look female. Female people have all sorts of faces.
(Whereas I would say you could make yourself look actively "male" with stubble, etc)

You can make your face look "feminine".

I really think it's important to not conflate feminine and female. Although in some areas (medical terminology etc) they do overlap.

But way to go to divide women based on race.

Yup. This is exactly the type of response you tend to get hence not bothering explaining.

Vladimir, I see where you are coming from and for you that are your feelings and your opninion. But for others this is different. Their feelings and opinion matter as well and being treated as second class citizens, harrassed or assaulted because of your sex can also destroy your feelings of self worth and your life. And unlike race, women are not allowed to object, discuss or fight for improvement in their lives at the moment.

Women can have the opinion that it is strange blackface is condemned in society and womanfacr is celebrated. But way to go to divide women based on race.

In short @sanluca I feel it trivialises, demeans and reduces racism. I'm black (well mixed race more specifically) and it's my view that all the discrimination I have ever faced has been the result of my blackness. Being called a 'bitch' or whatever doesn't phase me even a little bit - being called an n-word, however, can throw off my whole sense of self for ages at a time. I also think that white women have been perpetrators of abuse and violence towards black women for time immemorial. They can and do wield their proximity to white patriarchy to uphold their position within the power dynamic.

Thing is being black can be extremely mentally and emotionally exhausting, you spend an awful lot of time hyper-conscious of your blackness. Racism does really ruin someone's mental health. Black women put themselves through agony to try and appear 'presentable' to adhere to certain standards among a host of all other things.

I think on Mumsnet threads which involve elements of race are almost always going to be wayward, c.f. 'Karen' threads. But I try not to get too involved as everyone needs their 'safe space' and as a platform for white women and their concerns / lives this forum serves that purpose amazingly well.

The reasons women here give why they feel it is comparable and society should not see it as ok, are valid. As women they have the right to express their feelings. Anyone disagreeing should be able to explain that as well.

Comparing womanface to blackface in my opinion is like comparing a the pain from a paper cut to the pain of having your head sawn off with a rusty saw. It's not even remotely similar.

Misogyny and patriarchy remain part of the woodwork - and so many people have so little awareness of the position of women around the world - that the comparison sounds like a trivialisation of racism.

It's the epitome of unconscious bias.

• I thought like you initially. But once you see it you can't unsee it. I think it was fine when transgenderism wasn't an umbrella term that suddenly meant that men were entitled to our spaces.*

This is exactly what happened to me. Used to think it was a bit of harmless fun. Now am positively offended about it. A few friends of mine have had drag-themed birthday parties recently and I can't face going because apart from anything else, I don't understand how woman can dress up in drag. They're already women ffs.

@Linguini You misunderstand me, I agree there definitely are similarities. However, I think one of the ways in which the TRA movement makes itself really obvious is in the constant teaming/drawing comparisons to other civil rights type issues. At first that does get sympathy, especially when people don't really think it through properly. But once you see how constant it is it sort of undermines them as it shows that actually they don't have any arguments/legitimate reasons themselves to (eg) be in female bathrooms.
Whereas, if we are arguing that women's rights matter, it is because we think women have value in and of themselves - nothing to do with if X matters women should matter, if Y matters women should matter. So the argument is actually stronger (because its based in reality). I probably am not expressing myself properly however.

Plus, I think the more drag in particular is overdone the more cringey and uncool it becomes - and the harder it becomes to explain why a man in drag (how many drag queens see themselves) is NOT the same as someone who actually feels they are a woman inside.

I agree, it is adult entertainment/activity however (which is fine, lots of stuff is) and children really shouldn't be involved in it at all.

*black people can't reject

I think the main reasons I feel uncomfortable about the comparison are 1. Gay men probably aren't the enemy and have been oppressed by men just as women have

1. Women can reject outdated gender norms such as one length gowns 6 layers of make up and massive heels (and I think there is a genuine awareness that most of us have) whereas black people can reject their own skin colour and nor should they

Did you know that the Beeb can tell when people tune out, or at least I think they can. This is now my strategy when some arse comes on, move channels and then move back after a few minutes.

They know this happens at the Oscars apparently when the stars start their emotional, political meanderings, views buzz off - massively

Drag isn’t ridiculing women?

When there is a performer who ‘performs’ an abortion on stage? When names like Miss Carrie and Ana Bortion exist? When derogatory terms are used about women all the time.

Yet, males are telling us it is not ridiculing women in an attempt to gaslight and justify it. And of these are ‘edge’ acts, I have seen no attempt by prominent drag acts to call them out.

In fact, they come on Jimmy Carr shows and even do wafting actions over crotches when mentioning ‘fishy’.

Yeah. No. Nothing to see. It is all just good fun.