Stonewall's response to Transgender Trend

*quote

@suggestionsplease1 And as for the announcement of studies involving metadata trawling from multiple small studies - what a farce! - I heard a good quite this morning: "if you torture data sufficiently, it will tell you whatever you want"

@suggestionsplease1 The interesting bit will be what they feel and experience in 6months, a year, 2 years, 5 years, 10. There are a growing group of transitioners taking hormones for some time - are they being followed up medium to long-term? And the girls having 'top 'surgery', and testosterone- where is the data on their mental health trajectory, and there surveyed health experience?

All adolescents experience some form of Identity disorientation - some more painfully than others. There is an inherent mental health risk and suicide risk due to multiple factors in this cohort. Does 'gender identity' itself exacerbate this risk? Does not affirming exacerbate risk, more than say bullying or realising you're same-sex- attracted, or abuse, or neuro-diversity, or other things which can trigger acute feelings of anxiety in young people?

Your focussing on simplistic superficial information where the only factor focussed on is 'gender identity', when there are possibly (probably) multi-variant factors which contribute to any young person's feeling and understanding of self

It is my understanding that the ideology if gender identity is putting additional pressure and stress on young people as an additional major risk factor to their mental health. It is not a solution.

It's not possible to change sex, only imitate, and in doing so, put oneself through immense mental and emotional stress, before taking into account nullifying surgery. Pronouns and nicknames are meaningless, apart from being psychological precursors to a very dangerous and destructive pathway.

How do you imagine the longer-term outcomes will be for transitioners? Where is the medium to long-term data on that?

@suggestionsplease1 I linked to a longitudinal study of 139 boys earlier, demonstrating vast majority desisting from gender dysphoria (88%). 64% grew up to be non-dysphoric gay young men.

Your last citation is a single time point. A social media questionnaire. Patients will naturally feel more positive as a result of having their issues addressed, a clinical pathway identified. Particularly those taking testosterone will feel as though they can take on the world.

www.psychiatryadvisor.com/home/topics/gender-dysphoria/study-data-support-the-psychological-benefits-of-gender-affirming-hormone-therapy/

O this one's very topical - commentary on it by Psychiatry Advisor was just posted yesterday. Link to study at the bottom of the page.

@OldCrone have a read through some of these perhaps. O and everyone please do post all the links to research you have which supports the views you hold.

guilfordjournals.com/doi/abs/10.1521/suli.2007.37.5.527

www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19359705.2016.1207581

www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/lgbt.2019.0338

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1054139X1630146X

journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0886260520915554

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0890856717303167

bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-015-1867-2

psycnet.apa.org/record/2019-52280-009

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1054139X16303585

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1054139X14006934

publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/145/2/e20191725/68259/Pubertal-Suppression-for-Transgender-Youth-and

www.publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article-split/142/4/e20174218/76767/Transgender-Adolescent-Suicide-Behavior

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1743609516000801

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1054139X1930922X

www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/lgbt.2017.0259

ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.2019.19010080

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165032718317920

If you're going to post more links perhaps you could check first whether they're relevant to this discussion.

Quite.

Shit cloud cuckoo land analogy btw. But it's what I've come to expect of people that need to rely on made up shit in order to try and destroy women's rights and children's bodies.

Yep.

[quote DoubleTweenQueen]@suggestionsplease1 Ah - perhaps that's where the issue is. An introduction to stats course won't give you the tools to recognise robust scientific study design and identification of suitable controls, so perhaps that's where you've gone awry.[/quote]
Stats course would cover it in passing and would make clear the issue to most but research methodologies would be best.

What control would you like to see for survey questions relating to how use of preferred pronouns and name improve mental health for young trans-identified people, out of interest?

Are you going to ask young people who have no problems with their gender identity how their mental health is impacted when people call them by their preferred pronouns?

Do you see how non-sensical that is?

@suggestionsplease1 Ah - perhaps that's where the issue is. An introduction to stats course won't give you the tools to recognise robust scientific study design and identification of suitable controls, so perhaps that's where you've gone awry.

The participants in the second one were aged 26-52, and only two identified as trans. Full text here: voices-tmc.net/tmc2014/library/122-011.pdf

The title of the third one (a review paper) is "A Qualitative Scoping Review of Transgender and Gender Non-conforming People's Physical Healthcare Experiences and Needs", so not about trans children and young people and suicide.

Only 8 participants (aged 16-25) in the fourth one were transgender or non-binary.

The fifth one is another review: "Suicidal Thoughts and Behaviors Among Transgender Adults in Relation to Education, Ethnicity, and Income: A Systematic Review", so not about children and adolescents.

If you're going to post more links perhaps you could check first whether they're relevant to this discussion.

By the way. Here is Michael Biggs’ latest paper just released last month on UK numbers.

It too has lots of references to look at. It is not a peer reviewed study, but interesting none the less.

And also points out that there is likely to be other factors involved such as co-morbidies to increase the rate. But he has not quantified that in this paper.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-022-02287-7

There are plenty of good research studies out there using qualitative approaches to understand trans peoples experiences, you just need to look. If anyone thinks this is not the case they clearly do not know what they are talking about.

eg.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31062669/

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29981953/

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2021.598455/full

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13811118.2021.2003273

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6798808/

Wehn you get through those I'll post a few dozen more if you like.

[quote DoubleTweenQueen]@suggestionsplease1 There also doesn’t appear to be any sort of control group? - comparable cohort for age range. I question the use of % when looking at surveyed information?[/quote]
Listen, I suggest you do an introduction to statistics course or something, and then you will have an idea of why asking about a control group for this sort of research is such an inane question.

Igmum

You are right Igmum. I have an unclaimed research qualification (an industry one) from doing marketing research units and units of statistical analysis a uni.

This is a poorly designed research study even by market research standards, not even sponsored university research standards. And it is ridiculous to think some organisation would even think of using it to set policy and guidelines.

I really do think some posters on MN forget that many of us have our children caught up in this. And those of us who do, see the impacts daily. We also do the research. We do the analysis. We do the deep thinking.

Yet, they are here telling us we know nothing and treating us like we are ignorant. I hope it makes them feel better and morally superior.

Slightly off topic but as an antidote to attempts to trash Transgender Trend's reputation (while using discredited surveys) here's TT's in depth response to the Conversion Therapy consultation.
It's thoughtful, compassionate and responsible, centring children's safety and welfare rather than the demands of adult activists seeking to weaponise children in their political battles:

www.transgendertrend.com/transgender-trend-response-government-consultation-conversion-therapy/

12:32 suggestionsplease1
This is the worst hypothetical scenario I've come across.

A) You can't do a survey after you've killed yourself.
B) If you're trans everyone flipping well knows about it including your pet fish.

You're arguing that

1. trans suicides are so extremely illusive and hard to measure that no one can possibly know the real rates AND 2)Trans people are the most extremely at risk of suicide out of all groups ever. So which is it?

I'll remind the American TRAs who frequent these boards that it is measurably provable that Native American males are of the highest risk of suicide compared to any other group in America. Numbers of Native Americans are roughly similar to those of transpeople in the U.S.
One of these groups can be proven to be a high suicide risk. One of these groups can't.

@suggestionsplease1 FWIW my business is actually conducting, analysing and interpreting research (Mumsnet is like that, we have all sorts on here) and Helleofabore is right, your analogy is crap. Poor surveys are not rich qualitative data, they are poor surveys. I have never seen a rich qualitative study of kids who identify as trans. If you know of any I would be happy to read them. There are plenty of hard-to-reach research groups out there who mistrust researchers for all sorts of reasons and it is perfectly possible to conduct excellent quantitative and qualitative research with these groups. This is standard social science fare.

What is more, with this group, unlike other hard-to-reach populations, there are many other sources of evidence many of which have been mentioned here (Coroners' Courts, medical records) and some of which have not (drugs bought online, overseas clinics). Not always easy to access, but this is why we have social scientists.

You may not want to listen to this, because it challenges what you believe, but the facts really are pretty clear. I would encourage you, instead of trying to persuade us that bad studies are good, to ask yourself why you are so utterly determined to ignore evidence just because you don't personally like it. In this argument it is starting to look as though you want young people identifying as trans to commit suicide. Why?

Do you agree with those Men's Rights Activists in this analysis?

Yes. Although I'm not sure why they need to be men's rights activists. They could be anyone. But I suppose you think using the words men's right activists would be an immediate reason to dismiss their concerns.

Shit cloud cuckoo land analogy btw. But it's what I've come to expect of people that need to rely on made up shit in order to try and destroy women's rights and children's bodies.

Let's talk about who these people really are. Because they're not some rare ethnic minority. They are our children, who are at huge risk, because of the actions of those who force gender ideology on them. They are at risk of physical harm, brittle bone, heart attack, infertility. These are real children. Our children. This ain't no fairy tale made up bullshit, this is FACT. Maybe try understanding reality for a bit. I'm surprised the enormity of the mass damage being caused to children because of gender ideology doesnt overwhelm you and make you sick. I guess there's a reason right there to stay in cloud cuckoo land. So you don't need to face the harsh reality of what is happening to real children.

I didn’t see any mention in that study on comorbidities. Nor any further depth of other aspects of what was happening in that persons life.

It is a very superficial study to be proposed to be used to advise health policy as they mention in the implications section.

That analogy is crap.

You are talking about a known population. They are our children.

And there is enough of them being treated that there is knowledge about them.

They are not a magical population that has migrated to our country. There is also estimated to be around 500,000 trans people in the UK. That is larger than some indigenous populations living in western society.

Here's Dr David Bell talking (with his years of expertise) about the catastrophic outcomes for children where therapists prioritise treating gender "issues" and ignore their numerous co morbidities. These children end up as adults with their self harm, eating disorders, anxiety and depression, suicidal ideation etc ignored and completely untreated.

YY. The "shameful and dangerous" people are the ones who seek to disregard those serious comorbid conditions in favour of affirming gender identity and pushing their agenda.

Have you any idea how deaths are recorded? A parent couldn't just make a request to record their child's death by any name other than that which is on their official documents.

Has also ignored the key point that there would be an inquest in the event of a suicide.

In England, Wales and Northern Ireland, an inquest will be held in order to reach a verdict on the cause of death. The inquest is held in a courtroom – however it is not a trial and it is not about seeking to blame anyone. Only a minority of inquests have a jury – this is when there are very specific circumstances. The inquest is a public hearing and anyone may attend – including the media. The information shared as part of the inquest can be quite technical e.g. toxicology reports. Sometimes the investigation will uncover information about the person who has died that the family and friends were unaware of.

https://uksobs.org/we-can-help/suicide-bereavement/practical-concerns/?doingwpp_cron=1644497098.1423490047454833984375

Your posts are pure supposition.
There is no evidence.
Which comes first - GD or poor mental health?

Until we see some evidence that there are higher than usual numbers of children with gender identity issues committing suicide, there is no reason to assume this. TRAs can't just make it up based on hypotheticals.

@suggestionsplease1 There also doesn’t appear to be any sort of control group? - comparable cohort for age range. I question the use of % when looking at surveyed information?