Stonewall's response to Transgender Trend

I, too, am most keen to hear this answer.

suggestionsplease1

Any thoughts as to my question about what you believe are the causes of gender dysphoria in say, 13-year-old girls?

And do you agree that finding a cure would be beneficial. For both 13-year-old girls, and adult men and women.

And we read it with interest that it might form the basis of further research.

DoubleTweenQueen was upfront about the limitations of this research.

[quote DoubleTweenQueen]@suggestionsplease1 I suggest you go back and read the linked document. It’s not, in itself, a study, which you would know if you’d looked at it. You may need to breath into a paper bag for a few minutes beforehand.

Funny how professional GIDS clinicians, psychoanalysts, scientists, and other professionals who work with people experiencing gender dysphoria never use the term GC.[/quote]
Sorry but that's not really an answer, is it?

You will know full well from the link that you gave that any competent researcher is able to appreciate the issues that I raised and the studies that you are referring to can not possibly be matched cohort designs.

Therefore, why are you linking to them when they don't achieve the robust study design you say is necessary for consideration in this area?

It's a bit hypocritical isn't it?

Sue Evans - 40+ years psychoanalyst, formerly of Tavistock GIDS so with extensive experience in the area, speaks to the new phenomenon of cohort growth, particularly adolescent girls, in the EBSWA webinar linked on the previous page, also.

I want to see good psychological and social support for trans-identified young people. GC feminism does not want to allow a culture that would facilitate that.

I have said it on other threads, and I say it again on this thread. Your prejudice against people who disagree with you is very clear and shows very clearly on this thread, as it does on other threads.

GC feminism does not want to allow a culture that would facilitate that.

What a fucking load of bollocks!

Do you even know what many posters on this very thread advocate for? Are you just so entrenched in your prejudice you want to continue to take pops at posters of this board rather than actually engage?

@Scraggythang Thankyou. Excellent podcast - I urge everyone to subscribe! :)

Sorry if this has already been posted, but the latest edition to the gender a wider lens podcast has an interview with Finnish adolescent psychiatrist Riittakerttu Kaltiala, who also noticed, reported and researched the increasing number of natal girls in the gender identity service.

gender-a-wider-lens.captivate.fm/

@suggestionsplease1 I suggest you go back and read the linked document. It’s not, in itself, a study, which you would know if you’d looked at it. You may need to breath into a paper bag for a few minutes beforehand.

Funny how professional GIDS clinicians, psychoanalysts, scientists, and other professionals who work with people experiencing gender dysphoria never use the term GC.

did think Gish Gallop but I wanted to give suggestions time to answer. Because it did feel like Gish Gallop.

It does.

Of course you will know full well that the baseline characteristics for both cohorts are likely very different - namely in the degree to which they experienced gender dysphoria in the first place - those experiencing greater distress (amongst other considerations), would have been more likely to be put forward for GnRH analogues in addition to psychological intervention, and those for whom it was considered that their distress could be adequately managed by psychological intervention alone of course were in that cohort.

You will, of course, know that. It would be unethical to proceed in any other way - unless you think they're just taking the 270 kids and randomly assigning them to a treatment group with no individualised plan?

So this would obviously fall far, far short of the rigorous study design that you need to consider, so I don't know why you're even referring to it? It doesn't count right? Just like the the scores of studies I have linked to.

And it's Finnish not UK based evidence. I'm not allowed to include any non-UK evidence because it's not relevant to our particular culture and population, but you apparently are?

But of course, as it happens the results you have found show that all cohorts fared well.

And the authors conclusions are entirely inline with what I posted on this thread:

"The first-line intervention for gender variance during childhood and adolescent years is psychosocial support and, as necessary, gender-explorative therapy and treatment for comorbid psychiatric disorders"

I want to see good psychological and social support for trans-identified young people. GC feminism does not want to allow a culture that would facilitate that.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine

I did think Gish Gallop but I wanted to give suggestions time to answer. Because it did feel like Gish Gallop.

DoubleTweenQueen

Thank you. I shall watch that webinar. And read the link on the Finnish study with interest. I note as you said the lack of follow up at this time. I am sure they will follow though.

@Helleofabore I would encourage you to listen to the webinar above - and any other parent (or those working with children)

"During a Gish gallop, a debater confronts an opponent with a rapid series of many specious arguments, half-truths, misrepresentations, and outright lies in a short space of time, which makes it impossible for the opponent to refute all of them within the format of a formal debate.[3][4] Each point raised by the Gish galloper takes considerably more time to refute or fact-check than it did to state in the first place, which is known online as Brandolini's law.[5] The technique wastes an opponent's time and may cast doubt on the opponent's debating ability for an audience unfamiliar with the technique, especially if no independent fact-checking is involved or if the audience has limited knowledge of the topics.["

I should explain - the Webinar has Maggie Mellon of EBSWA, who I believe has joined the Genspect group now, plus Sue Evans, previously of Tavistock GIDS, and Betty of Bayswater Support group for parents.

Can I also highlight the work of the Evidence Based Social Work Alliance?
Latest Webinar which could be of interest, from Jan 22:

Website:www.ebswa.org

You have likely seen this already, however the Finnish have recognised the upsurge and cohort switch and have revised their treatment approach to be additionally cautious, and are expecting to improve learnings as they navigate the new landscape:
segm.org/sites/default/files/Finnish_Guidelines_2020_Minors_Unofficial%20Translation.pdf

Of note, in review of applicable studies:

In a larger study consisting of 201 adolescents, 101 patients with the average age of 15.5 (12-18 years) started an 18-month psychological supportive intervention, and, additionally at six months, pubertal development was suppressed by starting GnRH analogue treatment. The other cohort of 100 only received psychological supportive intervention for 18 months. In both groups, statistically significant increases in global psychosocial functioning were found at 12 and 18 months; among those having received psychological intervention alone, the improvement in global functioning was already significant at the 6-month mark. Both studies lack long-term treatment follow-up into adulthood.

I don’t have the study reference to hand as the Appendix is not available in this translated format. I could probably find it though, if any interest.

I don't believe that stonewall or any similar organisation are some pantomime monsters that want to get their big gay claws into our innocent children.

Maybe. Maybe not. Have you seen though who is on the Stonewall teams that is going out to schools? Peter Tatchell. I recommend you look Peter up and his writings on intergenerational sex. There is also Alex Drummond to discuss how he, a transitioned male, is a lesbian.

Up until recently they were also pushing the rhetoric that some people can be born in the 'wrong' bodies.

And as datun says, they have said some shameful things about lesbians and women who reject Stonewall's changes to the definition of lesbian.

Can you please point out what 'the other side' is saying that is problematic?

They are genuinely trying to help the many young people who have found their essential identity is denied by our society.

Do you understand the situation currently with the current cohort of young transitioners? That which is mostly females. Do you understand that parents are very concerned about the current treatments advocated by trans lobby groups of affirming only?

Because not enough emphasis is on the exploring of mental health and other comorbidities is being done. We are seeing this when we listen to detransitioners who have stated that this is the case. A group that seems to be ignored by the trans lobby groups and clinicians.

Sorry, here is the link. www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10225111/amp/Stonewall-brands-lesbians-sexual-racists-raising-concerns-sex-transgender-women.html

Stonewall have abandoned their remit of advocating for gay people all together. They don't think there is any such thing. In fact they think that lesbianism is akin to racism.

For many, it was a brave and long-overdue airing of an important and distressing subject: a painstaking investigation into claims that predatory trans women have been pressuring lesbians for sex, published on the BBC News website.

But a leaked email shows that the influential trans lobby group Stonewall attempted to suppress the investigation before it had even been published – and made the extraordinary claim that debating the issues was equivalent to ‘sexual racism’.

In this scenario ^, they are supporting heterosexual men, over gay women.

They were also entirely upfront about wanting to eliminate any sex segregation at all. And lobbied to have all the exceptions contained in the GRA, put there deliberately to protect women, removed entirely.

And their training has been found to be unlawful. Or in the official words, they want the laws to be as they would like them, not as they are.

They are not ignorant of any of this, since women have been highlighting it for years.

@SpeedRunParent I'm sorry, but that is an extremely naive viewpoint, when taking into account the influences that are now in schools from the earliest ages, the affirmation in schools, society, peer groups, social media, and the explosion of young people -particularly young adolescent girls - being presented at GIDS clinics in the western world.

I feel very strongly that the two sides of this argument are talking at crossed purposes. I don't believe that stonewall or any similar organisation are some pantomime monsters that want to get their big gay claws into our innocent children. They are genuinely trying to help the many young people who have found their essential identity is denied by our society. However, I do believe that these organisations are blind to the fact that the fairly typical teen rejection of norms has joined up with the trans movement and some teens ( generally middle class, white females ) are 'identifying as ...' as a way of rejecting the poisonous, over-sexualised gender expectations for females. Each side is fearing for those it has recognised and is discussing their needs, not the needs of the children the other side are talking about. Iyswim

gender transition, including medical treatments such as hormone therapy and surgeries, improves the overall well-being of transgender individuals. The literature also indicates that greater availability of medical and social support for gender transition contributes to better quality of life for those who identify as transgender

I believe that the focus of this thread is on teenagers and children. Or did I miss the change of topic?

I also believe that would mean we are discussing the current cohort of teenaged and children transitioners. The majority of which are female, which is different from the past.

Plonking down study after after after study that is not relevant to this cohort is not progressing any discussion. And if you cannot link studies that are focused on the needs of this cohort, it is rather futile. It does not show that you have a superior understanding on the topic at hand. It shows that you are grabbing anything to show you have 'links'.

We have recently had some clinicians (even transitioned male clinicians) who are saying there is problems with the current treatment recommendations for the current cohort.

Are you prepared to ignore them? Are you fully prepared to stand behind every single one of the studies/reviews you have posted in light of these clinicians trying to get the flag raised there is an issue?

I am not going to mention that Cornell uni 'review' that you seem to think my analysis of worthy of:' I think we're getting into the realm of conspiracy theories if people want to ignore this sort of work. '

I am not even convinced you have read those 51 studies. And considering that I believe there is enough evidence that puts the ' We found no studies concluding that gender transition causes overall harm. ' into the realm of false claim, I doubt you have read 'widely' of studies.

Again, I am going to point out that you are very keen to push your political agenda and to shame and belittle people pointing out the issues with your links.

I say very loudly for the people at the back.

There are posters on this thread that are very widely engaged with this issue, wanting to see balanced and evidenced debate between clinicians to ensure that the very best treatment is being found and recommended for this cohort of transitioners. Because this impacts OUR CHILDREN.

Max reported that he had always known he was a boy and had preferred stereotypical masculine clothing, mannerisms, and activities for as long as he could remember.

If it's not about stereotypes and sexism, why would Max even think this is relevant?

And why is there no mention of what has caused Max's gender dysphoria?

In most of these narratives the causes of gender dysphoria are conspicuous by their total absence. There doesn't seem to be any curiosity about it, either. Just accepted that kids suddenly develop an aversion to their own bodies. Often accompanied by an internal belief that their sex is prevented from doing things that they would like to do.

It's so bloody obvious, I don't know how it can be so frequently ignored.

suggestionsplease1 what would you say are the main causes of gender dysphoria in children? And do you agree that a cure would be beneficial?

We do seem to have had a recent influx of posters with a dislike of women alongside a worrying lack of understanding of science, facts and an inability to present accurate data.
Although it's tedious - and to all those women prepared to engage with it - the one advantage is it gives lurkers an insight into the dire state of data - especially around children and keeps informative threads bumped.