Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Louis Theroux: Sex work is valid work

187 replies

Hestyo · 08/02/2022 06:32

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6b668836-8849-11ec-a837-0153f5f4adaf?shareToken=82f93f7a57c728c82da0d575b5201d55

"It’s not something you’re especially proud of using. But there are times in your life when you can’t get a decent meal, or you’re in a rush, or you’re just trying to get a need met."

Theroux added that his children were approaching an age where their internet searches may lead them to pornography. “I have said to them, ‘When you see porn, if this is something you’ve stumbled across, just so you know, that’s not the real world. That’s not how people have sex,’ ” he added.

He said sex work should be seen as an acceptable alternative to a traditional career. Forbidden America will investigate the OnlyFans phenomenon, which has given performers their own online following and financial independence.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
A580Hojas · 09/02/2022 19:11

Individual women might choose to do sex work for their own screwed up reasons. But too many women have been coerced, groomed, or even brought up to do it (due to early normalising of sexual abuse). This impacts ALL women in the way men view women (as sexual playthings) and so no wonder the vast majority of women object - even if they have no connection with the sex industry.

Ann Summers is the "acceptable" face of the sex industry and I hate that Mumsnet accept so much money from this company.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 09/02/2022 15:23

@Cruiser123

Sex work is only ever valid work for women that aren't part of your family. It never ever applies to your own daughters, mothers, aunts, sisters.....
This. To those people who keep trilling on about it being a choice ... you do realise that many women are trafficked, groomed and coerced into this don't you? And often have serious addiction issues? How would you feel if your daughter fell for the Pretty Woman hype and chose it as her vocation? Risking assault, rape and possibly murder every day?

That this happens to one girl or woman is too high a cost. And to badge it up as "if they didn't mind working longer hours for less money" is highly offensive to the majority.

This thread is very fucking depressing.

girafferafferaffe · 09/02/2022 14:59

Oh Louis :(

Cruiser123 · 09/02/2022 14:58

Sex work is only ever valid work for women that aren't part of your family. It never ever applies to your own daughters, mothers, aunts, sisters.....

Awwlookatmybabyspider · 09/02/2022 14:41

I personally agree. I'd go into sex work if I had to. I have no problem whatsoever with admitting that. It's called survival. Also let's not forget did Jesus fall in love with a prostitute

BellatricksStrange · 09/02/2022 14:36

@Hestyo

Yeah, I don't think 68% of shelf-stackers have PTSD.

It's interesting (read horrible) to look at the reviews men leave of prostituted women. They get very resentful when the woman doesn't put on a good enough act for them to forget that they're essentially forcing sex on a woman who doesn't want it and is actually deeply traumatised by it.

Nor do they have money. SW is a much higher paid 'job', but at a much higher mental/emotional cost. But that doesn't mean it is any less of a real choice.

Unless we're born into riches, we all need to work. Some of us are lucky to be born with the work acumen/ethic/parenting that helps us get well-paid jobs. Others will need to slog - at least in the beginning - at less well-paid jobs. But we all work out of necessity.

Almost any consensual SW knows she could find work that won't take such a heavy emotional toll, but the flip side is that such work means long hours and little money. That's why they choose to do fewer hours and more money, but riskier work.

I don't see how this makes it any less of a valid choice than any other work.

ThrowawayBerna · 09/02/2022 13:02

@OhWhyNot

Well that is one way to look at it

Most don’t give it such deep thought we work to pay our way in life

It's not deep at all. It's supposed to be a 'zinger'. As if shelf-stacking is as much of a drain to the human psyche as the condition of your orifices being rated on punters' review sites.

As if women have never been, and are not prostituted in socialist or communist societies.

ixqik · 09/02/2022 10:11

I wonder which one of his sons would he be happy to go into sex 'work'. Who know? May all of them. Obviously when it isn't a possible option for you, you can say any old shite about it.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 09/02/2022 01:29

extract

The world is disturbingly comfortable with the fact that women sometimes leave a sexual encounter in tears.

(continues)

The real problem isn't that we — as a culture — don't sufficiently consider men's biological reality. The problem is rather that theirs is literally the only biological reality we ever bother to consider.

So let's actually talk bodies. Let's take bodies and the facts of sex seriously for a change. And let's allow some women back into the equation, shall we? Because if you're going to wax poetic about male pleasure, you had better be ready to talk about its secret, unpleasant, ubiquitous cousin: female pain.

Research shows that 30 percent of women report pain during vaginal sex, 72 percent report pain during anal sex, and "large proportions" don't tell their partners when sex hurts.

That matters, because nowhere is our lack of practice at thinking about non-male biological realities more evident than when we talk about "bad sex." For all the calls for nuance in this discussion of what does and doesn't constitute harassment or assault, I've been dumbstruck by the flattening work of that phrase — specifically, the assumption that "bad sex" means the same thing to men who have sex with women as it does to women who have sex with men.

The studies on this are few. A casual survey of forums where people discuss "bad sex" suggests that men tend to use the term to describe a passive partner or a boring experience. (Here's a very unscientific Twitter pollI did that found just that.) But when most women talk about "bad sex," they tend to mean coercion, or emotional discomfort or, even more commonly, physical pain. Debby Herbenick, a professor at the Indiana University School of Public Health, and one of the forces behind the National Survey of Sexual Health and Behavior, confirmed this. "When it comes to 'good sex,'" she told me, "women often mean without pain, men often mean they had orgasms."

As for bad sex, University of Michigan Professor Sara McClelland, another one of the few scholars who has done rigorous work on this issue, discovered in the course of her research on how young men and women rate sexual satisfaction that "men and women imagined a very different low end of the sexual satisfaction scale."

While women imagined the low end to include the potential for extremely negative feelings and the potential for pain, men imagined the low end to represent the potential for less satisfying sexual outcomes, but they never imagined harmful or damaging outcomes for themselves. ["Intimate Justice: Sexual satisfaction in young adults"]

Once you've absorbed how horrifying this is, you might reasonably conclude that our "reckoning" over sexual assault and harassment has suffered because men and women have entirely different rating scales.An 8 on a man's Bad Sex scale is like a 1 on a woman's. This tendency for men and women to use the same term — bad sex — to describe experiences an objective observer would characterize as vastly different is the flip side of a known psychological phenomenon called "relative deprivation," by which disenfranchised groups, having been trained to expect little, tend paradoxically to report the same levels of satisfaction as their better-treated, more privileged peers.

This is one reason why Sullivan's attempt to naturalize the status quo is so damaging.

When a woman says "I'm uncomfortable" and leaves a sexual encounter in tears, then, maybe she's not being a fragile flower with no tolerance for discomfort. And maybe we could stand to think a little harder about the biological realities a lot of women deal with, because unfortunately, painful sex isn't the exceptional outlier we like to pretend it is. It's pretty damn common.

In considering Sullivan's proposal, we might also, provisionally, and just as a thought experiment, accept that biology — or "nature" — coexists with history and sometimes replicates the lopsided biases of its time.

(Continues)

This is certainly true of medicine. Back in the 17th century, the conventional wisdom was that women were the ones with the rampant, undisciplined sexual appetites. That things have changed doesn't mean they're necessarily better. These days, a man can walk out of his doctor's office with a prescription for Viagra based on little but a self-report, but it still takes a woman, on average, 9.28 years of suffering to be diagnosed with endometriosis, a condition caused by endometrial tissue growing outside the uterus. By that time, many find that not just sex but everyday existence has become a life-deforming challenge. That's a blunt biological reality if ever there was one.

Or, since sex is the subject here, what about how our society's scientific community has treated female dyspareunia — the severe physical pain some women experience during sex — vs. erectile dysfunction (which, while lamentable, is not painful)? PubMed has 393 clinical trials studying dyspareunia. Vaginismus? 10. Vulvodynia? 43.

Erectile dysfunction? 1,954.

That's right: PubMed has almost five times as many clinical trials on male sexual pleasure as it has on female sexual pain. And why? Because we live in a culture that sees female pain as normal and male pleasure as a right.

Continues

www.theweek.com/articles/749978/female-price-male-pleasure

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 09/02/2022 01:19

Human beings and the trade in their bodies is not the same thing as trade in intoxicating substances.

We're talking about a radical notion here: women are people, too. They are not objects to be sold, and no-one should have a job that involves developing vaginal and anal tears.

"Sex work" is work in that it is psychologically and physically demanding. It is also unacceptably dangerous, and violates all health and safety legislation we have. And that was before the pandemic of an entirely new virus spread by close contact.

Louis Theroux: Sex work is valid work
Enough4me · 09/02/2022 00:03

Definitely, men don't have to have sex. If they want it they can do what women do, form a partnership or DIY.

OhWhyNot · 09/02/2022 00:00

Oh yes people never break the law

Wasn’t that the decision in the 90’s against drug use ?

Being honest with children and moving away from the idea that men have to have sex would help

Enough4me · 08/02/2022 23:53

If the buyers were sent to prison a week for every offence when caught buying a person, the culture would eventually change. Higher punishment for trafficking and pimping too. It would be seen as a disgusting thing for men to do.

It is being minimised 'it's just work', 'oldest job', 'women need the money', but stop the buyers stop the trade.

OhWhyNot · 08/02/2022 23:47

Is that to myself

I have not minimised anything

I am well aware of the suffering that happens but it’s can’t be constantly dismissed as none work. It’s not going to disappear

What other countries have tried hasn’t necessarily worked so we need to work with this idea as much as we dislike it that sex work is part of society and how to we best support women in the industry that does not mean support women to go into the industry as it’s a good career move

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 08/02/2022 23:34

I have never earned above minimum wage. None of those jobs I have done to pay my rent were anything like being trafficked or being groomed into prostitution by an abusive boyfriend.

Why you would minimise this, I don't know.

OhWhyNot · 08/02/2022 23:27

Well that is one way to look at it

Most don’t give it such deep thought we work to pay our way in life

barleybadminton · 08/02/2022 23:19

@OhWhyNot

Yes I know

But the work can’t be dismissed as not work. If the workers have been forced that is a form of slavery.

Coerced to is abuse

Unless you are born independently wealthy all work is coerced under capitalism.
OhWhyNot · 08/02/2022 23:09

Yes I know

But the work can’t be dismissed as not work. If the workers have been forced that is a form of slavery.

Coerced to is abuse

barleybadminton · 08/02/2022 23:08

[quote Dobedodo]@Alonelonelylonersbadidea of course you would but that’s not the point. The point is no one should be faced with that choice. I said it earlier but when people are hungry we put food in their mouths not dicks.[/quote]
But we don't do we? We strip people of benefits for the slightest of reasons, let the DWP bully people into demeaning poverty paid work and pay benefits that aren't enough to survive on.

Until those probems are addressed, along with inadequate housing, lack of educational choices, poorly funded substance misuse services and draconian drug laws that push people with problems into the arms of the worst kinds of predators then any attempts to further criminalise sex work (or those who use sex workers) will result in pushing people further into poverty and more dangerous forms of sex work.

And it's not just the lowest paid and most vulnerable sex workers who will be affected. One of my closest friends is a pro-domme and very concerned about the Nordic model because presuming that kind of sex work is included it will means jumpy paranoid clients and an end to all the things she does to ensure her safety, like photo ID checks when she takes bookings.

Enough4me · 08/02/2022 23:06

In the same way male murderers of women and men should not be able to get away lightly, the male buyers of women and men should be highly penalised. The whole culture of acceptance of male violence and purchasing of bodies needs to change.

I am so disappointed in LT!

DdraigGoch · 08/02/2022 22:59

@OhWhyNot

DdraigGoch that’s why I posted sex at times is traded by adults who are consenting

Children can never ever consent

I'm well aware that children can never consent (though Rochdale police might need reminding).

What I am saying is that not all consent between adults is valid. In order to be valid in my view it must be consent born of free will. Consent given as a result of intimidation or desperation is not true consent.

DdraigGoch · 08/02/2022 22:56

Please don't assume sex workers are only capable of factory work
I didn't, she was clearly bright enough to get onto a degree course. Trouble is that it doesn't matter what she is capable of. Would-be employers want to see documented evidence either in the form of experience or qualifications and she will have neither, having dropped out of her degree and not sought employment. A massive unexplained gap in your career history on a CV will push your application straight onto the "reject" pile. Which then means that you are stuck with the occupations most people consider too unpleasant so employers can't be picky.

or do not have the foresight to make plans for their future.
I'm not sure that many people at the age of 20 have the foresight to plan properly for their future. Look what happens to many footballers - they come into money at a relatively young age but in many cases blow it on fast cars etc., leaving them with nothing when they hit their thirties and have to retire. Some do OK but many don't. I suspect that clubs often help out by providing financial advisors to new players. I doubt the woman in question is getting that.

OhWhyNot · 08/02/2022 22:54

DdraigGoch that’s why I posted sex at times is traded by adults who are consenting

Children can never ever consent

Dobedodo · 08/02/2022 22:47

@Alonelonelylonersbadidea of course you would but that’s not the point. The point is no one should be faced with that choice. I said it earlier but when people are hungry we put food in their mouths not dicks.

DdraigGoch · 08/02/2022 22:37

@OhWhyNot

Its work that is exchanged for money.

Sex at times is traded by adults who are consenting

Children can’t consent

Adults can't always freely consent. They may feel forced into doing something by impoverishment or the threat of violence.
Swipe left for the next trending thread