Page 2 | Woman's hour 7th feb - pregnant people

WarriorN · 2022-02-07T09:47:41+00:00

They're doing a piece on the language of reproduction:

Abra1d1 · 07/02/2022 12:11

@FrancescaContini sorry, see your point was about something rather different!

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 07/02/2022 12:09

Further to @FrancescaContini's posts - was there not evidence of this submitted to Baroness Nicholson's webinars by a paediatrician who had seen children who's sex had been changed on the medical records and this was concealed by parents? The kid's blood results were examined against the range for the wrong sex and the child was harmed by this. My detail might be fuzzy, but I definitely think that your point is sound, Francesca.

BaronMunchausen · 07/02/2022 12:08

@FrancescaContini

I did email Woman's Hour pondering the notion that language subtleties might trigger gender dysphoria for a transman but giving birth wouldn't.

And asking if we had any statistics for the number of transmen who have given birth in the UK.

SolasAnla · 07/02/2022 12:07

@FrancescaContini

Surely the onus is on the individual to stay abreast - no pun intended whatsoever - of what their healthcare needs may be?? Is it really the responsibility of the NHS to remind people that they still have a cervix etc?

"People" who get elected and are allowed vote on healthcare laws.👀

Once upon a time there was David who lived on an island. He woke up one morning and read the back of the box. "Warning may cause growth of new body parts" 🦖🦖🦖🦖

mobile.twitter.com/LBC/status/1443125834626260993

Abra1d1 · 07/02/2022 12:05

@FrancescaContini

Surely the onus is on the individual to stay abreast - no pun intended whatsoever - of what their healthcare needs may be?? Is it really the responsibility of the NHS to remind people that they still have a cervix etc?

One in 7 adults in England have literacy levels at or below that expected of a nine to 11-year-old. Cervix isn't a word used commonly. You can't see if. You probably don't know it's there a lot of the time. Women need reminding.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 07/02/2022 12:05

@LilithOfEden

Not sure what I have said that's warranted deletion, MN moderators. If a child with the birth sex female is told/affirmed she is a boy, that all her biological functions are those experienced by males, and is sheltered from any education that might tell her otherwise because it might be triggering, then yes, she might not have the faintest idea she has a cervix.

*@LilithOfEden* is stating fact. 50% of UK women do not know what is a vagina and what is a vulva.

yougov.co.uk/topics/health/articles-reports/2019/03/08/half-brits-dont-know-where-vagina-and-its-not-just

Of course, with the usual clanging irony, the questions from YouGov talked about gender and not sex d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/bxrj4xtd02/YG-Archive-WomensBodiesInternal-070219.pdf and yet were reported as if they were sexed questions. FFS.

Can you reinstate posts? Because what @LilithOfEden said is important, even if unofficial mods find the facts inconvenient.

There are cases of trans men and NB females who believe they could actually change sex. This is going to impact on their health and is a serious issue which I think, deserves discussion.

Datun · 07/02/2022 12:04

@FOJN

The change in language is not and never has been about being inclusive of TM and NB's, it's about separating the word woman from biological functions only performed by female bodies in order to give legitimacy to the question "what is a woman". TM's and female NB's have never had and will never have that much power or influence.

Exactly.

Which is constantly borne by the fact that men's language is not being policed in this way.

And these are the questions that need to be asked.

Since when have women been able to influence language across-the-board in this way, in a heartbeat. Across all media, radio and television, and politics, education, unions, and female organisations. The lot. Overnight.

And how come men's language is being completely ignored.

And it will absolutely be feminists who see this instantly. It's so blatant.

And we need them to point it out.

People who aren't as aware of patriarchal influence might well view this as being a transman issue. But women in the know, won't. And they need to start saying so.

Women need to start calling men prostate havers, penis owners and ejaculators. And see how it clangs with just about everybody.

LilithOfEden · 07/02/2022 11:59

Was I deleted for using incorrect pronouns? Are discussions in the abstract of a hypothetical person subject to language control?

FrancescaContini · 07/02/2022 11:59

@LilithOfEden

Not sure what I have said that's warranted deletion, MN moderators. If a child with the birth sex female is told/affirmed she is a boy, that all her biological functions are those experienced by males, and is sheltered from any education that might tell her otherwise because it might be triggering, then yes, she might not have the faintest idea she has a cervix.

It was an excellent post. Why was it deleted?

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 07/02/2022 11:58

[quote WarriorN]From following some links on twitter, the supplementary files have only just been added.

twitter.com/drkarleeng/status/1490562732818862080?s=21[/quote]
Figured it out - to open the supplementary files you have to click on the red button and download it.

It's a comprehensive collection of examples where sexed language was not used and so meaning was obfuscated. There are cases where sexed language from e.g. a conference presentation was made gender neutral for sharing on social media.

It's FUCKING OUTRAGEOUS.

LilithOfEden · 07/02/2022 11:55

Not sure what I have said that's warranted deletion, MN moderators. If a child with the birth sex female is told/affirmed she is a boy, that all her biological functions are those experienced by males, and is sheltered from any education that might tell her otherwise because it might be triggering, then yes, she might not have the faintest idea she has a cervix.

FrancescaContini · 07/02/2022 11:53

@FrancescaContini

Surely the onus is on the individual to stay abreast - no pun intended whatsoever - of what their healthcare needs may be?? Is it really the responsibility of the NHS to remind people that they still have a cervix etc?

Just to clarify what I meant by this: I am not referring to anyone who may ever need any kind of medical treatment but to the group of people referred to in the radio interview ie “trans” people. What I mean is: even if these people genuinely believe they have “become” the other sex by whatever means, surely they realise that they still retain, for example, a cervix and therefore need to attend screening (assuming they want to be screened). So if they wish to be registered with their GP as their “gender identity” ie male rather than female, how is the surgery then supposed to know to keep these people in the loop regarding routine cancer screenings, whether for prostate or cervix? So it has to be the responsibility of the individual to come forward and remind the surgery that they need an appointment.

Makes much better sense to remain registered as your sex rather than “gender identity” with health services, as the researcher pointed out.

IvyTwines · 07/02/2022 11:50

[quote FrancescaContini]@BaronMunchausen
That 44% figure is shocking. Don’t children learn about the reproductive system at school any more? I would have thought that most women over 18 or so at least know they have a cervix due to being called for screening.[/quote]
A week or so ago Woman's Hour itself did a feature on ignorance and confusion between the words vulva and vagina (Channel 4's nude dating show had been mixing them up) and a guest also mentioned many didn't know what a cervix was either.

nettie434 · 07/02/2022 11:38

I just came on to see if there was a thread about this!

I thought Jenny Gamble did well at highlighting the confusion that can occur when 'people' is used imprecisely. I also liked the way she highlighted the need for clear language in information and advice and referring respectfully to individuals, such as trans men and non binary people giving birth.

The onus might be on individuals 'to stay abreast ... of what their healthcare needs might be' but we know there will always be those who cannot/will not do this. Otherwise we would be able to close most of the NHS.

As others have said, these changes that we are told are to make health care more inclusive only seem to involve women and girls' health. Amid the references to chest feeding, pregnant people, menstruators (which auto correct is trying to correct to 'men's tractors'), and cervix havers, has anyone ever seen a leaflet aimed at prostate havers? The prostate cancer campaign is all men men men, with no references to trans women or non binary people.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 07/02/2022 11:30

[quote WarriorN]From following some links on twitter, the supplementary files have only just been added.

twitter.com/drkarleeng/status/1490562732818862080?s=21[/quote]
Says "sorry, we can't preview this file" when I click the link, @WarriorN

It's open access, isn't it?

Plasmodesmata · 07/02/2022 11:30

Reproduction as a topic isn't in the current A level Biology specification for two of the major exam boards (AQA, OCR).
Inheritance and genetics, yes, but not the reproductive system, although it is covered at GCSE.

Awkwardy · 07/02/2022 11:26

Midspousery

ErrolTheDragon · 07/02/2022 11:26

[quote FrancescaContini]@BaronMunchausen
That 44% figure is shocking. Don’t children learn about the reproductive system at school any more? I would have thought that most women over 18 or so at least know they have a cervix due to being called for screening.[/quote]
Cervical screening doesn't start till 25.

FrancescaContini · 07/02/2022 11:21

@LilithOfEden
The scenarios you outline are terrifying but the logical end conclusion of believing or being led to believe that you really can change sex.

AgathaMystery · 07/02/2022 11:20

[quote vivariumvivariumsvivaria]@AgathaMystery, yes, midwifery is a bonkers place at the moment.

I'm in sexual health.

If you look at genitals all day you get a good understanding of what sex is. It's fascinating to me that they pretend they can't see what is plainly facing the nose on their face.[/quote]
the mind boggles

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 07/02/2022 11:20

@AgathaMystery, yes, midwifery is a bonkers place at the moment.

I'm in sexual health.

If you look at genitals all day you get a good understanding of what sex is. It's fascinating to me that they pretend they can't see what is plainly facing the nose on their face.

sanluca · 07/02/2022 11:17

[quote FrancescaContini]@BaronMunchausen
That 44% figure is shocking. Don’t children learn about the reproductive system at school any more? I would have thought that most women over 18 or so at least know they have a cervix due to being called for screening.[/quote]
Yes, children learn about biology. They learn there are vagina's and penisses but it is a mystery who has what.

I also think a lot of kids who don't do A level biology probably never get beyond vagina, uterus and ovary. Just enough to learn what parts you need to make a baby. But again, some men can have babies too nowadays. So good luck making sense of it all

Original poster

WarriorN · 07/02/2022 11:17

From following some links on twitter, the supplementary files have only just been added.

twitter.com/drkarleeng/status/1490562732818862080?s=21

OP posts:

FrancescaContini · 07/02/2022 11:08

@BaronMunchausen
That 44% figure is shocking. Don’t children learn about the reproductive system at school any more? I would have thought that most women over 18 or so at least know they have a cervix due to being called for screening.

AgathaMystery · 07/02/2022 11:05

[quote vivariumvivariumsvivaria]@AgathaMystery I'm dying to ask what field you work in...

I'm an HCP and there's barely been a sniff from my lot. They have all read it but are too scared to say they agree.[/quote]
Oh, midwifery. It's no secret.