My first time on the pointy end of the trans debate. It's shit

*of self righteous

Men who despise women hate them saying no.

This but also - some men are looking for a stick to beat women with - so actually enjoy these interactions. Some of them want the fight itself and this is one of the best they’ve ever had, they can add a special kind righteous fury to it, when in the past they’ve always felt secretly inadequate.

Also - the literary world is one of the worst for this right now, especially for the women virtue signalling all over Twitter about it. They’re such good women, the accommodating kind of women

So sorry, OP. Yet another example of how the debate is not "toxic on both sides". I have a Twitter account from which I tweet GC stuff and I've been subjected to a huge amount of vitriol on there. It's just pure misogyny, but it does seem particularly sad when it comes from other women.

The whole TRA movement is just the latest stick to beat women with. It's a collective delusion and I do hope that sanity returns one day. However, the amount of latent misogyny that it's unleashed is frightening.

I would also agree that you should stay in the group if possible as otherwise other women who may agree with you will see you being bullied out as a warning. But I also completely understand that you don't want to be subjected to the abuse either.

For some reason book clubs - of all places - seem to be infested with these bullying, censorious little fascists. It is very hurtful when you are attacked and vilified for no reason. But lately I just state my case , as civilly as I can manage and then move on. In that way I hope to at least plant a few seeds.

So sorry this happened to you, OP. Stunning how intense the discussion becomes, and it feels so damn personal. If there are no mods, the tenor of debate gets volcanic, really nasty.

But the battle is truly joined, and by far the most coherent, well-informed comments come from posters critical of gender ideology on a variety of issues: JK Rowling, girls' and women's sports, the WiSpa incident in LA, for example, stating one's pronouns in signatures at work etc.

Though you feel you’ve stepped into a snake's nest, and feel betrayed by reactions from your comrades, doubtless others in your literature group agree with you. All it takes is one voice to start the ball rolling.

Sending support to you from the US West Coast.

And no, it's not only insulting for women but men too.

@RedBonnet the term 'cis' is a Latin prefix which means 'on this side of'. It is used (correctly) to describe chemical bonds in scientific research. In terms of gender, it was co-opted (incorrectly) as a antonym to trans in about 1994. So, it's a nonsense, made up term and delegates women to a subset of their own sex class.

It's also a nonsense, made up term which is being enforced on women against their will. We are told that we must accept the term or be labelled transphobic while simultaneously being told that we must abide by preferred pronouns or be investigated by the Police.

And did you mean it's insulting for men only, or is cis woman an insult too?

Ugh things like this make me feel old and out of touch 😭

However I do understand the whole JKR debate and I find the whole trans rhetoric very scary

Aggressive misogynistic porn addled males froth at the mouth over this issue. Which says everything you need to know about it.

Is there a legal definition of transphobia? If there is I have not seen it.

And just why are the trans people and more so their "supporters" SO aggressive? I'm not a conspiracy theorist bit it is soooo odd that we have had trans people for ages, why suddenly now (especially now where there is so much more to get ones panties in a bunch about) is it the Next Big Thing?

and TERF means Tired of Explaining Reality to Fuckwits

Filing this away for future use, thank you

With the JKR question, people repeat lies that they seem to genuinely believe to be the truth. I've been told she "repeatedly misgenders people", as if that was the most heinous crime imaginable. She doesn't, of course but when I ask for specific instances I'm told to do my own homework. There is no reasoning with these people.

Neon, FB doesn't announce what groups you've joined on your TL. Not even public groups let alone private ones, which all the GC groups have to be. In some groups they don't even use the T word - they say 'trains' instead.

Next to The Stanisland Question, the 'JKR Question' has to be the most awkward question a woman can ask.

Something like 'If JKR is a transphobe, can you direct me to anything she has said or written that is transphobic?'

I would have to presume that to justify the avalanche of rape-and-death threats she has received, JKR must surely have written something so prominently transphobic, that Police Scotland would have arrested her and the Procurator Fiscal had prosecuted.

Except...there's no such record. Not even any record of TRA's saying they've complained to the Police about her allegedly transphobic statements.

The problem of course is that no-one, particularly TRA's, can actually identify any such record, ever. Hence the frantic, desperate efforts to deflect; to do anything other than answer the question. To admit that, well, nothing has ever been found.

I reckon The JKR Question should be asked at every opportunity, repeatedly and with enthusiasm. It should in theory be fantastically easy for TRA's to answer, but they just don't seem able to actually fulfil it.

It's all just a stick to beat women with.

The new misogyny is the old misogyny but with blue hair.

Remember, online isn't the real world. People say sthings that they wouldn't dare say IRL because the anonymity of the intermet emboldens them. Don't be scared by the ranting of some random male, he's nothing.

Just saw this and it seems on point.

It's rubbish OP, that's why I don't express any opinions on FB.

I'm interested in the FB groups though, but will my feed announce that that "Neon has joined a GC group"? I wouldn't want that to be seen. Cowardice on my part, sorry.

Anne

My eyes were opened years back when a TQ+ person was suddenly displeased and they and their allies produced a truly shocking, extreme and dramatic attack on me personally, out of all proportion, with language and anger and a viciousness to language that was shocking. It was as if all the time and things I'd done with them and for them didn't enter their heads. My crime had been requiring them to follow the rules of the group I ran like everyone else did, rather than permitting them exemption to break them as they wanted.

Sadly when I began to look around, including reading here, I discovered this is a very common experience.

Read around on the relationships board: there is a good reason why the very wise women there who give their time to advise and support women caught up in awful relationships say that there are some behaviours people will show you that the only thing you can do is NC, LTB and develop healthy boundaries.

“Waitwhat23

Men who despise women hate them saying no. Gender ideology has given those men a platform to state their anti women views quite openly.

It's utterly horrible but you'll undoubtedly find there are many of the group who agree with you but have been frightened into silence by this type of behaviour. You have been used by this man as a warning to others to keep silent.

I agree with a pp about not leaving the group. Step back and make sure that you are not identifiable.“

Yes, it was a man’s warning to be silent or I’ll kill you tactic. Blue Beard.

Did no one defend you?

You were brave and true, well done.

I'm on a book group too, and this happens ALL the time. Someone posts about JK (or Harry Potter, or one of her other books), then the majority of people discuss the actual topic .. but there's ALWAYS one who has to bring this into it, saying they won't support her because of her views on trans people.

I respond, like you, asking for a direct quote that show she's prejudiced. They will continue to argue with me, but cannot ever provide a quote - because there isn't one.

JK has only ever commented from the stance of keeping women safe, and allowing them to retain their own identities. I personally think that is incredibly important. I am a woman, I would like to be referred to as such.

An especially vitriolic poster (himself a young white 'cis' man) said that nobody wanted the opinion of a white cis woman.

He spoke the truth, no one pushing this agenda cares about biological women. He could have added that biological men never have. As you said, not original: and the very definition of sexism. At least it was only name calling and online. This is how men always maintain power over women - by threat of violence. To be perfectly honest you’re quite lucky if you haven’t seen that before + .

To be clear: the Labour Councillor didn’t send the abusive messages, but excused them.

I probably should have done @HollowTalk. I did let my acquaintance know what her friend had said to me, before unfriending her. She just made excuses about her friend’s poor mental health. 🙄 The acquaintance in question is now a local Labour councillor. Pffff.