I don’t fit in anymore

This is incredibly idealistic.

All sounds lovely written down but to be truly intersectional you need to recognise that a disabled woman has a right to be bathed by female only people.

And a female nurse bathing a disabled transwoman has the right to refuse.

And that's the issue we have.

Who gets the label of being part of feminism?

Because it dammed can't be males too.

OP, I went through exactly the same cycle of emotions when I realised I was completely out of step with my progressive artsy tribe. It is very lonely, and very destabilising. Hanging out here and on Twitter using anonymous accounts helped me understand and come to terms with what I was experiencing.

I also think that people are changing their mind on this issue and IME, when they hear about things that are happening, they want to talk about it. There are also a lot of young people who I think will come through the other side of this as they get more mature and we hear more about detransitioners and court cases, as well as those who desist or detransition themselves. It’s important that we do, if possible, let people know we’re here and can find each other.

My DD (late primary school) has a female friend who now identifies as a boy. I have had brief discussions about it with the friend’s mum. I could tell from what she said that she was hedging very carefully to try to say she wasn’t 100% on board with it / didn’t believe the ideology and wanted to essentially let it blow over, but didn’t want to say so outright in case I jumped down her throat. I was able to make similar noises and reassure her I wasn’t about to go overboard in affirming her child. Now she knows I’m here if she needs support with school etc.

Likewise I think it’s good for kids who have quite understandably been swept along in this, to know there are adults in their life who aren’t enthusiastic about it so they won’t be alone and ostracised if they have doubts. Even if they want to deplore their terrible GC parents, they might need us IYSwIM.

The friends that I value most aren't all in complete agreement with me on all issues. But they are all able to discuss them ratonally without anger or accusations or falling outs. I think that's quite telling, really.

I only mention the transwomen winning women's sports thing - because no sane person could think that's a good idea. However I find that women with no interest in sport spout nonsense about it or believe it's fine - very angering. Just selfish.

@supporteveryone 22:25
How is allowing men identifying as women into women’s changing rooms, women’s sports, women’s refuges, supporting black women who have religious views that mean this proximity is wrong? Or supporting vulnerable women against whom there may have been many offences committed by men? Or women who have spent their lives at a sport only to be beaten in a competition by a man who formerly was in the lower rankings among men?

Where are the feminists you speak of campaigning for Disabled Day pride flags, zebra crossings, ramps? Jewish pride day crossings? Muslim day parades? Blind person’s story time at the library for children instead of a transvestite story time? Where are the badges to show people’s religion or some other identity important to them instead of their ‘pronouns’?

And what are you doing here hinting that women who are concerned by the erosion of women and girls’ rights, safety, dignity and health are racist, ableist etc? I think that in this context it is misappropriating other people’s needs and causes.

And as for the white middle class man you say is at the top of the hierarchy, why is it
that you find him magically transformed - and worthy to be accepted into women and girls’ spaces - as soon as he puts on women’s clothes, or indeed just because says he is a woman?

Wow, this is some feminism movement. We have space to support everyone who needs it! Everyone?

Really?

Do you support MAPs, supporteveryone? Do you support rapists? Wife beaters? MRAs? Punters?

See what SophoclesTheFox wrote about changing rooms in the thread about Lia Thomas the swimmer. SophoclesTheFox has explained the nonsensical madness brilliantly.

Black people, gay people, trans people, disabled people, women, and many more groups of people are treated as second class people in society with white middle class men as always at the top of the hierarchy.

Yes this is massively disingenuous. These aren't all separate groups in the first place. Gay and disabled people can be white middle class men, and back and disabled people can be women. However males are not females, just as white people are not black people, and the non-disabled are not the disabled and adults are not children.

The problem with trans ideology is that it says we have to believe that males are females (but curiously not the other examples of mutually exclusive things) for the purposes of sex categories in things like toilets, changing rooms, sports, prisons and hospitals. Those categories and separations exist for a reason - that without them women are disadvantaged, put in danger and/or put in fear.

That means women suffer, while men don't from the reverse situation - in fact in the reverse situation, it's still the female who is in danger.

So if you don't think men should be top of the tree, why support an ideology that isn't supported by any evidence that shits on women and gives men an advantage - especially the most dangerous men?

And why aren't you pushing similar beliefs that black people's organisations and awards and groups, disabled people's and children's spaces, sports etc, should be open to anyone who identifies into them? Otherwise your position makes no sense,

The word “woman” includes to all of those categories. We are united and inclusive of all females. I shudder to think of anyone reading the word woman and thinking it only applies to white, straight and able bodied people.

I think your thread title is actually spot on. It’s about ‘fitting in’

I don’t doubt there are genuine transgender people who need help and support.
However I firmly believe at the moment it’s ‘popular’ and ‘cool’. In the 90s every girl was bi because it was cool. Now with the internet everyone is trying so hard to stand out and be different and be part of whatever is popular it’s really sad and exacerbates the issues by influencing children to copy them (be that trans/lgbt/surgery/whatever)

I think it's because most feminists (aside from mnetter feminists and a few people on twitter 🙄) believe there is room to support women, trans people, non binary people, disabled people, black people and anyone else in need of support. Most feminists do not think that supporting trans women takes away from women but rather it unites us together. If you recall in the 70's black women were ostracised from supporting womens rights for fear they would damage the fight. We now look on that behaviour in disgust. I predict in 30/40 years time we will do the same to women who do not support trans women for fear it will take away from them. It's good that your daughters look beyond what's taught in their family and will hopefully be more inclusive for it.

Black people, gay people, trans people, disabled people, women, and many more groups of people are treated as second class people in society with white middle class men as always at the top of the hierarchy. Imagine if we all stood together how strong we would be. But instead you prefer to be an insular group that fights other disadvantaged groups. You think you are standing up for yourselves but actually your just feeding into the hands of the men who have the power. Like puppets on a string.

There's a real element with people like this where they see the people they want to help as a kind of an abstraction. And by help, they mean good things like help them get along materially, but also, make them more like themselves, good liberal secular westerners, just with more exotic food.

They don't really respect them as people, intellectually. And maybe some of the performative stuff is an effort to hide that from themselves.

If you went back 100 years you'd see similar personalities doing good works would be missing seeing people for themselves as well.

Not charity sector but similar caring woke sector.

I keep myself quiet and no one would know my true beliefs because I would face serious ramifications. I find this utterly chilling.

Just wanted to show some solidarity because your story sounds so like mine, except it's friends vs co-workers. Also have 2 daughters and yes, it's a social contagion.

You're not alone.

It’s a really tough road. My friends have been either full on chanting the mantras or slightly panicked‘don’t upset anybody’.

I’ve learned to question without passion (anger in my case). although my teeth may have been worn down.

On the religious thing, I was brought up catholic, I am now a very committed atheist. In the last few years I’ve made friends with a catholic archbishop. We have debates but respectfully & humorously.

If people are truly looking for answers they can do so like adults.

You’re not alone, OP. I’ve noticed that a very senior female colleague has started putting pronouns after her name and I think a great deal less of her now: Jenny, she/her.
No shit, Shylock.
The cognitive dissonance is astounding.

However for some reason I find her less judgmental than my liberal friends. I think it’s the fact that she is able to converse about difference in beliefs without showing hatred for others with a different view?
I have a long-standing friend who is a devout evangelical Christian. She once said to me, as we slogged along taking our numerous DC to school, that C.S. Lewis had made the point that the important bit about friendships wasn't that you had the same answers, but that you asked the same questions. That must have been 10 or 15 years ago, but its really stuck.

Also, OP, your comments about 'luxury' made me think that you might enjoy this podcast, by Bari Weiss:
podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-luxury-beliefs-hurt-the-rest-of-us/id1570872415?i=1000540733255