Dare I ask - the trans issue?

The great and the good made sure there was an exemption in the GRA so that males weren't disadvantaged. Think on that.

When did this thread move here?

Whether or not trans women are women, I am in the camp that believes they should be treated as women in society. Their experiences will be different, but my experiences will be very different to yours.

In what degree would their experiences differ to mine or yours as biological females?

I suspect you understand the magnitude of the 'differences' here but like to play it down.

Transphobic
adjective
Having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.

Transphobia, the actual kind, isn't tolerated on MN.

Please explain how disagreeing with gender ideology equals a prejudice against or dislike of trans people?

I don't agree that God exists. I don't agree that puffa jackets look cool (hello 1990s drug dealer in the jungle club?) I don't agree that trickle down economics works. I don't agree that cats are better than dogs. I could go on. All those opinions put me at odds with a huge number of people with whom I happily interact every day. What is so different about trans people that I am not allowed to disagree with them?

Giraffesandbottoms

I raised it a couple of years ago on my doorstep to a conservative candidate (who was very well read up on it and agreed that sex matters sometimes) and a LD councillor campaigning for the LD candidate. They also agreed but told me that the LD executive had specific goals around this. And the LD MP who won the seat has continued to walk the LD line about it.

BUT neither parties can say it was never raised in their region. I imagine the next elections will see many women raising this.

So, well done. And who ever wins, please keep emailing them with any latest issue. I assume they are local council, but there is so much to to be done even at that level.

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/16319/pdf/

They just want to live in a way that feels most authentic to them

Fine, up to the point when doing so impinges on my rights and my life. I do not have to and will not validate their view of themselves or be used as a prop in their authentic living.

Whether or not trans women are women, I am in the camp that believes they should be treated as women in society. Their experiences will be different, but my experiences will be very different to yours.

This is a very confused take. On the one hand it seems very individualistic to try and deny that different women have in common the experience of being female under a patriarchy.

I'm willing to bet that my experience of, for example, puberty had more in common with a girl from a completely different cultural background than it did with my brothers' experiences of puberty.

Individualism is problematic because those with structural and physical advantages tend to come out on top.

But if you're individualist in nature what does "treated as a woman" in society even mean to you? You are acknowledging the class of woman here. But a moment ago you asserted different women couldn't possibly have anything in common, negating them as a coherent class.

Your sex isn't a feeling.
Or an item of clothing.
Or a way of walking or acting.

It is nothing to do with your soul or your inner essence.

It's just what you were born as and what you'll die as and no woman does the washing up or climbs a mountain or paints a picture or picks their nose while simultaneously thinking 'I'm a WOMAN, look at me being a WOMAN'. We just are them, without thinking about it or trying.

@RVN123

Exceptional post.

@Helleofabore

Thank you. Poor man was terrified of my ranting but there you go!

Well, it all comes back to the question......WHAT is a woman?

If you define woman as ADULT HUMAN FEMALE, then how can a biological man ever be an adult human female? The answer obviously is, he can't.

If you define woman as some sort of ethereal, cloudy, non distinct feeling, then a man can be a woman, but he can also be a dog, a cat, or a hippo if he 'feels' like one, and if his 'feelings' are to be believed and indulged. Why is that any more silly than feeling like a woman?

HOW can a man feel like a woman if he has never been one and has no point of reference? Just because he may not feel like a traditional man or fit into masculine stereotypes, does not therefore mean that by default he is a woman.

Woman means female at a biological level.
We know it's impossible to ever change biological sex (and we've heard all the arguments - hormones can change, genitals can 'change' to an approximation of the chosen sex etc). It does not result in anything other than a natal man on synthetic cross sex hormones who may or may not have had body modification surgery to resemble a woman. If the hormones are stopped, his own natural body would reassert itself as fully male again.
Sex is binary.
Sex is determined genetically at CONCEPTION. We are not all "female" in utero (at about 6 weeks the SRY part of the Y Chromosome (if present) expresses itself and results in a male foetus all going well, if not, it may result in a DSD.
Sex is immutable.
Unchangeable.

And none of this is "transphobic" - facts cannot be transphobic. Facts are just facts. Facts don't care about 'feelings' or beliefs, or an internal ideology in some man's head.

The facts will still be the same in 100'000 years. That's how we know they are facts. Science books will not be re-written.

Yes you entitled to your own opinions.
But your are NOT entitled to your own facts.

[quote oviraptor21]@SliceOfCakeCupOfTea
Like rye 5th Duke of Timbuctoo. When he dies his title will only ever pass to a male heir. The 6th Duke of Timbuctoo will be a male ....never a transman.
I'm assuming if a male has a GRC (making them a transwoman) they wouldn't be allowed to inherit the title either?[/quote]
You are incorrect in your last statement, a male who has transitioned to a transwoman with or without a GRC and the GRC lists their legal sex as female will still inherit the title because, surprise, surprise, in terms of inheriting aristocratic titles, a place in the HoL, vast estates, etc., the TW is still considered male.

Patriarchy, eh.

If transwomen were actual women they would have an inkling of how frightening it can be for women and girls when a man is in protected, segregated women's spaces, but they have no idea, because they are men.

[quote oviraptor21]@SliceOfCakeCupOfTea
Like rye 5th Duke of Timbuctoo. When he dies his title will only ever pass to a male heir. The 6th Duke of Timbuctoo will be a male ....never a transman.
I'm assuming if a male has a GRC (making them a transwoman) they wouldn't be allowed to inherit the title either?[/quote]
Ooo now that is interesting!

Duke of ....... has two children, the elder is a transman John ( born female but legally male after transition and has Gender Recognition certificate) and the other a transwoman Jemima, also with a GRC, so legally female although born male. Duke dies and new Duke is Duke Jemima because only people born male can take the title.

Transwomen are men.
Transmen are women.

Transwomen are not women. If they were then there would be no need for the 'trans' bit. It's not transphobic to understand or point out the biological reality that human beings can't change sex.

People have been scared into silence on this issue by the TRAs and MRAs but I don't believe anything other than a very small minority really and truly believe that transwomen are women. It just defies every logical consideration.

Whether or not trans women are women, I am in the camp that believes they should be treated as women in society. Their experiences will be different, but my experiences will be very different to yours.

Should be 15 year old dd have to see their genitals in changing rooms and never, in her life have the choice whether or not she sees male genitals and in what context?

Humans can’t change sex.

He's had death threats for expressing that piece of biological reality.

Cherish your friendships with them but remember they are men not women. Men are completely free to explore their "feminine" side without encroaching on women's safe spaces. They are just as likely to get a woman pregnant as any other man. Wanting to live in a way that feels most authentic to them is a fantasy, like those of us who'd like to win a big Euromillions Jackpot.

Humans can’t change sex.