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Original poster

Dare I ask - the trans issue?

293 replies

shoplifteroftheworld · 04/02/2022 15:17

How do people feel about the 'trans women are women' idea?

A friend recently said I was a TERF which I'm not but I don't agree that a man in his 50's who suddenly identifies as female and wears a dress has any idea of what it is to be truly female.

Feeling that you are trapped in the wrong body must be hell and the surgery one goes through is extreme to say the least. But it doesn't make you the opposite sex to the one you were born as.

Am I getting this wrong?

OP posts:
SignOnTheWindow · 04/02/2022 22:01

@RVN123

As long as MNHQ keep moving threads it gives the impression that this is something that should be swept under the carpet, or that doesn't concern average women "on the street". MNHQ this DOES CONCERN women everywhere, even ones who are not traditionally interested in women's rights or feminism. I think you are doing women a disservice by continually sweeping such threads into the naughty corner. Who are you to decide what should and should not interest women? Disappointing.

Absolutely. Need to keep contributing to these threads in the 'naughty corner' so they make it onto the active threads board for more to see.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2022 22:01

I will thanks

You already have, as they've moved your thread here! Welcome Smile

Scraggythang · 04/02/2022 22:00

“A friend recently said I was a TERF which I’m not but…” you are. Get comfortable with it. Nothing you say will make you anything other than a transphobic bigot from here on out. But that’s ok. Your assertions are factual. Better to tell the truth and all that.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 04/02/2022 21:49

@FOJN

Was there a poll attached to the thread in AIBU?

Those things get bloody inconvenient if you're trying to push a narrative that its only 6 women on the feminist board who are concerned about the impact of self ID on women's rights. The polls always seem to show its the majority of posters on the thread, it's awkward so the treads are moved. Our external moderators are very report happy but they're not silencing women at all!

It's actually 6 white, middle class, middle aged women with half a dozen sock accounts each, shouting into a void. 😄🧦

And yet them seem utterly terrified of us speaking and are desperate to shut us down.

Every AIBU ends up with 2000+ votes with around 97% thinking gender identity ideology is nonsense, which is pretty much like the adults I know IRL now they are finally starting to catch up with what is actually been going on.

VestofAbsurdity · 04/02/2022 21:40

That poster was being snarky to you OP, ignore.

Original poster
shoplifteroftheworld · 04/02/2022 21:37

@slashlover

How do people feel about the 'trans women are women' idea?

OP, you've been here for several years, how can you NOT know how MN feels about itt?

Because I've only dipped in now and again
OP posts:
Original poster
shoplifteroftheworld · 04/02/2022 21:36

@Lottapianos

No, you're not getting it wrong. It's not possible for anyone to change sex. Some people struggle with that fact, but it is a fact. Your sex has nothing to do with how you present yourself, what colours you like, your personality traits or your interests.

Join us on the Feminism board

I will thanks 😊
OP posts:
crazyjinglist · 04/02/2022 21:32

Whether or not trans women are women, I am in the camp that believes they should be treated as women in society.

In what ways should they be 'treated as women'? How do you, in fact, 'treat someone as a woman'? I think some of the ways that women are treated are not really what TW are after.

Do you think that, for example, a biologically male person who identifies as a woman, but has sexually assaulted or raped girls or women should be treated as a woman by being put in a women's prison and by having their crimes recorded as having been committed by a woman?

SliceOfCakeCupOfTea · 04/02/2022 21:31

@crazyjinglist

I'm not sure that that is correct based on what I've read today? Obviously happy to learn more about it but I've read that identifying sex from bone isn't 100% accurate (though it is very very high)

Do you have a link for that?

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15567621/
DrSbaitso · 04/02/2022 21:30

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I'm not sure that that is correct based on what I've read today? Obviously happy to learn more about it but I've read that identifying sex from bone isn't 100% accurate (though it is very very high)

Do you have a link? Not about bones, about DNA, because the understanding that every cell in the body has a sex is mine too. Intersex conditions are sexed, the only time it would be ambiguous for the whole person from testing DNA would be if there was some form of both sex chimerism with two lots of DNA.

Yes, the preferred term now is "with a difference of sexual development", because that's what it is. People with DSDs are definably one sex or the other. There are some XY DSDs in which it may be better to raise the child as female (people with Swyer's syndrome ARE female; they have no male genitals and all female parts except functioning ovaries) but the fact remains that this particular variation of development occurred along the XY line. (That's why sex is defined as which gametes your reproductive class is capable of producing: sperm or ova. You may have a condition that interferes with your production of said gametes, but you're still in the sex class capable of it; such conditions, by nature, can occur only in one of the two sex classes. There's no medical issue in a male body that can't produce ova. And of course, in mammals, producing ova means your sex class is also designed to conceive and sustain a pregnancy, deliver young and lactate. Complex procedures that require a body that is significantly different to one that isn't designed to do any of this.)

There is also a clear consensus in the DSD community that they are sick of being exploited in this debate to "prove" that sex doesn't exist. Not only are DSDs irrelevant to the discussion, it's also a very hypocritical and dishonest line of reasoning. You can't problematise the concept of sex by exploiting DSDs and then suddenly know the difference when deciding which hormones to take or which sports category to enter.

Rheopecticfluid · 04/02/2022 21:28

@twomumsonebump

Transphobic adjective Having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.

Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Y'all are just transphobic but won't admit to it.

Now that's a distinctive posting style. I feel like we've met before. ☺️
SliceOfCakeCupOfTea · 04/02/2022 21:27

@crazyjinglist

I'm not sure that that is correct based on what I've read today? Obviously happy to learn more about it but I've read that identifying sex from bone isn't 100% accurate (though it is very very high)

Do you have a link for that?

Ooo I think I posted some further up the thread. Let me look
crazyjinglist · 04/02/2022 21:27

I'm not sure that that is correct based on what I've read today? Obviously happy to learn more about it but I've read that identifying sex from bone isn't 100% accurate (though it is very very high)

Do you have a link for that?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2022 21:23

Is that in Scotland for male-line titles or are there other cases too?

I'm not sure, or if it has ever been an IRL issue. They were keen to provide for it at the time though.

VestofAbsurdity · 04/02/2022 21:20

But I don't think that should stop someone born a man from living as a woman, if that would make them happier, and I'm happy to call them what they like.

I find a lot of their version of living as a woman, i.e., what they think a woman is, looks like, lives like fucking insulting.

DrSbaitso · 04/02/2022 21:18

@Ereshkigalangcleg

What was that?

Sorry, it wasn't clear in a fast moving thread. The GRA exemption for primogeniture.

Is that in Scotland for male-line titles or are there other cases too?
Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2022 21:14

What was that?

Sorry, it wasn't clear in a fast moving thread. The GRA exemption for primogeniture.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2022 21:12

I'm not sure that that is correct based on what I've read today? Obviously happy to learn more about it but I've read that identifying sex from bone isn't 100% accurate (though it is very very high)

Do you have a link? Not about bones, about DNA, because the understanding that every cell in the body has a sex is mine too. Intersex conditions are sexed, the only time it would be ambiguous for the whole person from testing DNA would be if there was some form of both sex chimerism with two lots of DNA.

OhHolyJesus · 04/02/2022 20:50

@Waitwhat23

Ooh, I stepped away for a while and this thread has, of course, been moved to the naughty corner. Clearly it has displeased the misogynistic monitors!

There's been some brilliant questions and discussion from posters whose names I don't recognise as normally being on this board. Please do stay and join in the conversations - it's great to see so many more people thinking 'hang on, what is going on?'

I'm another who welcome newbies to the naughty corner - fetch a drink from the bar and grab a seat.

Rules still apply, more here then elsewhere you'll find (it's the naught corner for a reason) but at least you know you're not alone (and not mad...and not wrong.)

Welcome WineGinGlitterball

SliceOfCakeCupOfTea · 04/02/2022 20:49

@crazyjinglist

If someone were taking hormones/hormone suppressants in early puberty or just after, wouldn't that affect the bones forming in a way that help us identify sex?

But every cell in the human body is identifiable as either male or female, isn't it? Identifying whether those bones were male or female wouldn't need to look at their formation - the DNA would make it perfectly clear. Taking hormones does not make you change sex.

I'm not sure that that is correct based on what I've read today? Obviously happy to learn more about it but I've read that identifying sex from bone isn't 100% accurate (though it is very very high)
DrSbaitso · 04/02/2022 20:47

Even if we made a mistake sexing ancient bones, they'd still be male or female bones. I've sometimes mistaken a man for a woman and vice versa, but they've still been a man or a woman. I've just been mistaken.

Helleofabore · 04/02/2022 20:43

But I don't think that should stop someone born a man from living as a woman, if that would make them happier, and I'm happy to call them what they like. I don't think that is controversial.

As you say, it becomes controversial when sex matters. When safeguarding protocols are softened, when women and children’s boundaries are lowered to accommodate a male’s needs.

But I disagree also. I don’t believe that a male really can understand the world as it is navigated as a women. They understand it as a transitioned male. They have their own perceptions. As I said. I believe that most females would have many more shared experiences than a transitioned male and a female would. Simple bodily functions would encompass a good few to start.

And sorry, a transitioned male lives their life how they perceive a female lives theirs or they forge their own experiences (which I really hope they do and accept). I don’t agree that they ‘live their life as a woman’, it can only be that they live as a transitioned male.

PaleGreenGhost · 04/02/2022 20:30

What is considered controversial about your very reasonable statement is the bit about prisons and sport. Sorry to inform you that you too are a raging transphobe.

We probably agree on more than we disagree, but I would like to ask what "live as a woman" actually means, without resorting to stereotypes?

crazyjinglist · 04/02/2022 20:29

If someone were taking hormones/hormone suppressants in early puberty or just after, wouldn't that affect the bones forming in a way that help us identify sex?

But every cell in the human body is identifiable as either male or female, isn't it? Identifying whether those bones were male or female wouldn't need to look at their formation - the DNA would make it perfectly clear. Taking hormones does not make you change sex.

Waitwhat23 · 04/02/2022 20:16

Ooh, I stepped away for a while and this thread has, of course, been moved to the naughty corner. Clearly it has displeased the misogynistic monitors!

There's been some brilliant questions and discussion from posters whose names I don't recognise as normally being on this board. Please do stay and join in the conversations - it's great to see so many more people thinking 'hang on, what is going on?'

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