Dare I ask - the trans issue?

A man is a man and a woman is a woman! The best surgeons in the world cannot change biology and a person’s chromosomes. People can believe and identify as they see fit but you cannot argue with science. The derogatory term TERF is used because there really is no logical argument for a man thinking they are a woman especially when women are campaigning for women and their safety (toilets, changing rooms, hospitals, jails etc.) so it comes down to name calling!

[quote Giraffesandbottoms]@TheAbbotOfUnreason

Is that the same for the skull shape?[/quote]
Apparently in the skull, jaw shape can change with the loss of adult teeth.
So for example, a mans jaw which has lost several adult teeth can more resemble a females as the original body blueprint for all humans is female.

This is what I've just been reading about.

Quote fail above! Was supposed to reply to PP who suggested not believing in gender ID is the same as "having a problem with" individual trans people.

Where do people see this all going?

EVERYBODY I know, men and women, think it's absolutely bloody ridiculous that there are currently men/trans women competing in womens sport. Everybody.

Who is putting an end to it all?

This is not a rational line of thought.

I'm an atheist. Does this mean I have a problem with my Muslim neighbours or my Christian dad? Of course not! I get on with them all fantastically. Showing them respect does not equal believing or pretending to believe in their religion.

Also apparently it's very easy to mistake a narrow hipped, tall female skeleton as male and a shorter, more petite male as female.

So, at a glance, it seems that bones aren't as binary as I had thought and the exploration into forensic anthropology in trans people is not massively clear as it's a relatively new phenomenon.

Would be so interesting to leap 100 years in the future and see what they can tell about our society now from the bones.

@TheAbbotOfUnreason

Is that the same for the skull shape?

Pelvic morphology differs markedly between the sexes, but only after puberty. It seems that with the onset of puberty, the female pelvis expands; with the onset of menopause, it contracts again. The male pelvis remains on the same developmental trajectory throughout a lifetime.

www.pnas.org/content/113/19/5227

Transwomen are men.
Transmen are women.
Non-binary is nonsense.
There's no such thing as a trans child.

COME FOR ME, STONEWALL STASI!

You don't get to decide how they identify, thankfully and never will

I don’t care how people identify! People can identify as cats for all I care - I just don’t expect their self ID to impact my life negatively and erode women’s rights in general. Calling mothers and women anything other (people who menstruated/chest feeders or whatever it is now) is batshit and offensive. What about what I identify as?!

[quote SisterJude]@theqentity you think women want a say in how men identify? Really? I don't give a fuck as I'm sure a lot of women (and men)don't. As long as they stay out of women's spaces I don't care what they do🤷‍♀️[/quote]
Yep. I'll still think they're men but it doesn't bother me how they identify, as long as they stay away from womens rights, sports, safe spaces etc. as they have absolutely no right to be there.

It’s not my area of expertise but I would be extremely surprised if taking hormones would change bone composition

I thought there were concerns about puberty blockers doing just this - Lupron which I understood was a similar type of drug used to delay early on set puberty there were concerns raised as bone density is mostly put down in teen years and it seems to have adverse effects.

khn.org/news/women-fear-drug-they-used-to-halt-puberty-led-to-health-problems/

bmj :Close examination of existing studies indicates that use of puberty blockers in transgender young people commonly results in loss of bone mineral density

If someone were taking hormones/hormone suppressants in early puberty or just after, wouldn't that affect the bones forming in a way that help us identify sex?

I don't know the answer to the orginal question but it looks like bone may be affected by the suppressants or very least there are possible concerns.

Sex matters. Trans women are men.

The idea that pre-pubescent children could be given medication that might alter their bodies in such a way that their sex would be indeterminate in future life is repugnant and indefensible.

[quote Ohmygodyesthatsit]@theqentity nobody has a problem with transwomen who just want to live their lives showing respect to women. But however much we may respect them they aren't women, they cant be its a biological fact you cant change your sex. And by insisting they are women, it allows less decent folk to take advantage, and use it to abuse women.[/quote]
You have a problem with transwomen, and don't for a second say you don't. You don't get to decide how they identify, thankfully and never will.

Transmen have no negative impact on mens life, some trans women have huge negative impact on womens lives.

Isn’t it for transmen that the phrases pregnant people and chest feeding were brought in? Or have I got that wrong?

You're not wrong and FYI, the vast majority of trans women have no bottom surgery and so retain their penis and testicles.

You’re right OP. They are men. And need to stay out of female only space and woman's sports.
Check out standing for women . com and Kelly-Jay Keen on YouTube.

@theqentity nobody has a problem with transwomen who just want to live their lives showing respect to women. But however much we may respect them they aren't women, they cant be its a biological fact you cant change your sex. And by insisting they are women, it allows less decent folk to take advantage, and use it to abuse women.

Exactly!

[quote Giraffesandbottoms]@SliceOfCakeCupOfTea

It’s not my area of expertise but I would be extremely surprised if taking hormones would change bone composition. Not to mention the huge morally dubious practice of giving someone pre pubescent hormone altering drugs.

But yes, even without the DNA being examined, plenty of factors will show that a body was female - the pelvis, the skull, bone size/density etc.[/quote]
I might see if there is anything published on this that I can find (and understand). Not to make a point or anything but it's really interesting!

I would have thought that before bones had finished growing, the sizes and shapes could be altered through hormones.

off to google