thank you from a TW

‘Live as a woman’ I was wondering what that actually meant too - not in an antagonistic way, just curious (does it take much thought or is it just natural?)

And I don’t think that you really want to be accepted as a woman. Everyday sexism sucks!

uncommongroundmedia.com/forced-teaming-feminism-lgb-and-trans-rights/

Well, I'm sorry for your experience and anyone who's had similar.
But I don't think shutting down conversation is helpful.

I think the more open, honest conversation can be had about this issue, the better. And that can only happen if women, men, transwomen and transmen all talk to each other.

We trans widows had years of that when we were married, thanks.

Don't stop the dialogue (but do keep respectful).

Really? You couldn't leave toxic masculinity behind, could you? You still have to tell us what to do. You come here to MumsNet, one of the few OL places where dialogue is actively welcomed, and the only OL place where the discussion does not degenerate into threats and namecalling, and you tell us to be RESPECTFUL.

I welcome and embrace trans people, as long as they acknowledge that they cannot change sex and remain biologically male or female. Live as whatever you want, otherwise.

Btw that actually is a genuine question. I'm interested to know if the question can be answered without the use of the word "stereotype".

I'm aware that sounds snarky but I'm genuinely interested and I'm not going to apologise or ask you not to take offence to a straightforward question.

"male who lives as female...live in a society that lets me present, act and be accepted as a woman"

Please could you tell me how you live, act, and present as a woman?

Welcome.

Yes, misscocker, when you think about it, how defeatist and victim blaming is the legislative response - transwomen are afraid of how men will react, therefore they must be not only entitled but encouraged to use women's spaces.

Why not 'be kind' to the males?

Let's not forget that while a transwoman (or various males, for that matter) may be at risk from other males they will never be at risk from pregnancy, and are less at risk than females given the well researched and evidence differences in relative size & strength between males and females.

I’ve been in the toilets when a trans women is there and I noticed as did other women. No one said anything but I and others obviously felt uncomfortable and hurried to leave.

It’s disingenuous to say we don’t notice.. so notice. We have always noticed.

The solution is for males to accept all men, however they are dressed, in men's spaces (loos, changing rooms, sports etc). Your post shows this. The likes of Stonewall should be educating males to "be kind" and accepting but instead their vested interests (financial and good old fashioned misogyny) are causing real damage to girls, women and society.

*as best we can.

You're welcome.

It's true we are spending so much time holding the fort for women that no one is fighting to make sure you get the respect you deserve from everyone. Especially the gents.

But we see you and we respect your choices as much as you respect our lives.

To be fair, I don't feel right with the "wrong body" statement. I firmly believe no one has the wrong body. You want to get the very best out of the only life you have and this choice is going to do that for you. Go you. We'll support you as best you can.

Women allowed a TINY minority of mtf transsexuals to use their spaces because they’d been led to believe that they’d all had the surgery and were of no threat to women and girls. We did it to be polite and kind. We were never asked if it was OK, they just moved in and we stepped aside out of kindness. Most transsexuals don’t even use women and girls spaces. They have been and still are aware that they are males and that women abs girls have a right to their privacy, dignity and safety away from all males.
In the last 10 years every male transvestite in the world has been invited to include themselves under the “trans” umbrella and to call themselves “transwomen”. These men have no medical diagnosis of dysphoria/dysmorphia, have no surgeries (or any intention of having the surgery) and few take cross sex hormones. They merely say “I’m a woman”. They make up 90% of men who identify as transgender. A vast number of them are heterosexual men with a paraphilia called autogynephilia. This means they are sexually attracted to themselves as “woman/girl”, the primary object of their sexual desire. They have a strong compulsion (in varying degrees) for wearing “woman/girl”. These are the men we are now expected to allow into all women and girls spaces, provisions and sports. This is where the real conflict arises because instead of there being a TINY number of men who identify as “transsexual” in women’s spaces, there’s now a lot of men identifying as “transgender” and they’re already driving women out: Out of toilets, changing rooms, showers, hospital wards and clinics, rape and DV shelters, jobs, awards and sports. And they’re making the lives of women prisoners unbearable. Women prisoners can’t escape the male sex offenders and rapists who’ve been transferred to women’s prisons because they identify as transgender. They’re trapped and no one is listening to them.
Women weren’t consulted on any of this. Policies and laws were changed by stealth and since the changes have been implemented to slowly remove single sex provisions across the board women and girls have been faced with the horrifying consequences. Men are being allowed to get naked in the women’s changing rooms around non-consenting women and girls. No one wants to be faced with a grown man indecently exposing himself to their six year old daughter in their local swimming pool showers only to be told “I’m a woman” and then accused of “transphobia” after reporting him for his crime. What’s the difference between a man flashing his genitals at a little girl in the park and a man doing it in the women’s changing rooms, irrespective of how he identifies? Why would he get arrested for it if he flashes in the park, but be protected by the authorities if he identifies as “trans” and flashes in the women’s changing rooms? It’s gaslighting on steroids. Gender self ID is a predatory man’s passport into women and girls spaces. This is what women and girls are currently faced with.
None of us consented to these changes, so of course women and girls and MOTHERS are going to challenge this erasure of their sex based rights.

Hi Atarax, I think one of the most valuable messages to get out there is that most men are ok with trans women, and aren't a threat to them. And that trans women understand the importance of single sex spaces for women and girls. I appreciate it took a bit of nerve to use male toilets or changing rooms, but I'm glad you did it and there was no drama. Every man I know would be civil, or actually indifferent. I presume most men ignore each other totally in shared spaces? Thanks for dropping by!

@SevenWaystoLeave

Given that most women can spot a transwoman from quite some distance, I think we are all well aware of how many transwomen have been using our spaces.

There are a huge number of visual cues that most women can't miss, including male gait, hip to shoulder ratio, hand and foot size, the type of clothing chosen...

You probably don't mean to be patronising but please consider how daft you sound trying to tell women that we can't tell the difference between the two sexes. We have evolved to be able to tell the difference at a glance.

Thank you for posting. I have read quite a lot of stuff regarding the trans movement (if that's the right word) and I know from people giving personal accounts that the majority of trans identifying people just want to quietly get on with their lives , and are having a very difficult time with the aggressive and threatening behaviour of the TRA's.
Protecting female spaces does not automatically mean anti-trans, far from it, what it means is we are against predatory men who wish to access female only spaces for sexual purposes x

Happy to stand with you, Atrax. Ultimately, upholding protections as laid out in the Equality Act will benefit all of us.

Can you think of one thing ALL women do that men NEVER do except when trying to "live as a woman"?

I can't think of anything like that.

There is no new "big push". Trans women have always used women's spaces. If you weren't aware of that prior to the current moral panic, it just goes to show how little trouble they cause.

Hmm not quite being truthful there though are we?

The demographic has changed considerably; more self identifying and not seeking full reassignment.

During lockdown my DH's workplace had a big refit. They have a gym in the building and initially 2 changing rooms for men and women. As part of the refit they used extra space and created a women's, a unisex and a men's changing rooms. The unisex space, whilst being smaller, has several toilet cubicles with basins etc and another that includes a shower and toilet. I realise that not every business has the money or space to do this but personally I felt that this was a big step in the right direction. Everyone deserves privacy and dignity and it is a huge shame that LGBT organisations have spent so little time working on practical solutions.