thank you from a TW

But if you were to get called the wrong pronouns all the time then you might have some idea what it is like for a genuinely gender disphoric person's mental health. They also are probably confused by "live as a woman". It is just the recognition they want.

It would also show that the person needs mental help support and to learn to develop strategies for inner resilience. The chances of being 'recognised' as a woman are slim. At best it will only be someone attempting to be kind. It's never a wise strategy to rely on others, particularly total strangers, for validation and happiness. It won't work. You can't control what other people do, say or think. You can only control your own response to that.

There are a lot of similarities between gender dysphoria and the desire to have healthy limbs amputated. It has been suggested that both are neurological rather than psychological disorders, which would mean that psychological treatment may not be the answer.

Is this what you're referring to?

This is an interesting article about people who want their healthy limbs amputated.

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/12/a-new-way-to-be-mad/304671/

More or less

It's a shame there's just an opening post and then no further engagement.

"Living as a woman" depends where you live. It's just cultural. As Amazonian tribeswoman would have a very different take on it than our European culture.

In the UK in 2022, how is living as a woman different from living as a man?

But if you were to get called the wrong pronouns all the time then you might have some idea what it is like for a genuinely gender disphoric person's mental health. They also are probably confused by "live as a woman". It is just the recognition they want.

But you can't control other people's behaviour or perception of you. If they see a male person they will speak and act accordingly, no matter what that person declares their feelings to be. Many people will 'be kind' and call a man by a female name if that's what he wants, but you can't control what other people think of you.

Why is 'recognition' so important? If it's all about how you feel inside, that's what matters isn't it? Why care about what other people think?

It rarely works
The first lesson of medical school is do no harm. But medical transition is fraught with risk of serious complications. For a mental health issue that may resolve without intervention it is completely unethical.

It would be very unusual for a fully gender re-assigned mtf with a GRC to out themselves by using men's spaces. Otherwise what would be the point of transitioning?

Can you explain what you mean by this Redlake?

What is the point of transitioning and what does it have to do with women-only spaces?

It rarely works. That is why we have gender identity clinics. And the discussion goes around in circles.

Well looking at the amount of detransitioners starting to come forward, its clear that rushing down a medical pathway isn't the answer. Watchful waiting and more mental health support would be appropriate. No point saying it rarely works, when its not even tried most of the time.

daring to call her existence into question

I never understand this statement. It's often used but what does it mean?

I don't think anyone on this thread has said that OP doesn't exist!

Surely it's better to support people to feel ok as they are.

It rarely works. That is why we have gender identity clinics. And the discussion goes around in circles.

Redlake that's interesting thanks. I can imagine that would affect you, people calling you the wrong pronouns. But why blame the people? Why expect them to know what you fe on the inside? Why is there a push to surgically alter healthy bodies and put a massive strain on people's health with hormones? Surely it's better to support people to feel ok as they are. If it's a mental health issue, get mental health support, not surgery and hormones with horrendous side effects.

Fnoz That's what I mean really. Some days I wear feminine clothes, but mostly not. My job is neither typically masculine nor feminine. I'm the only adult in the house so I do both typically masculine and feminine jobs round the home (whatever that means really). I use a rucksack rather than a handbag. I rarely wear make up. I never wear heels. My hair is no longer than a lot of men's hair. I don't have periods.
So I don't really live 'as a woman' as far as it seems to be defined by trans identified people. And yet I am one because I have a female body.
So what does living as a woman mean? How do you do it? Is it just a load of stereotypes? In which case why do trans people think others can think of them as women? Because to me it's always just a man in a dress. No matter how 'feminine' that man looks on the outside, in my head its always a man. Who looks a bit unhappy.
Again, apologies if any of that sounds arsey. It's not meant to be, it's just what I think.

I've been thinking all afternoon,and wondering what 'live as a woman' means? I suspect that I have very little in common with the majority of women on this site,but I'm still female. Both my jobs are in male dominated industries and I wear mens clothes to do this work as women's are not up to the same standard. I'm not interested in handbags,clothes,shoes makeup, soap operas,talent shows ect.Am I living as a woman? If not,what are the parameters?
This is a genuine question,and I'm asking because no one ever seems to have a definition.

It would be very unusual for a fully gender re-assigned mtf with a GRC to out themselves by using men's spaces. Otherwise what would be the point of transitioning?

Are you suggesting that the point of transitioning is just to be able to use women-only spaces?

Our arguments will lose all credibility if we become unreasonable and resort to just being angry at all trans people for the sake of it. We need to keep rational and stick to the issues and facts.

*daring to call attention to her existence, not into question!

Op is not saying she is a woman. She is not saying she wants access to woman only spaces. She is not asking for anything to be reworded as 'people who menstruate'. She is not asking to compete in woman only sports. It sounds to me like she just wants to get on with her life, living in a way that makes her happy.
There is a lot of sound debate here, but it's quite hard to justify the denials of transphobia when a perfectly civil poster like this gets an ear bashing just for daring to call her existence into question.

Op calls himself a TW, that seems clear enough. I'm glad he uses the appropriate facilities. If all TW were like him we'd be back to the point I was at before this all kicked off, thinking gender non conforming men had the right to present how they wanted, name themselves what they wanted and go about their lives in peace.

Our male allies (GC men of whatever persuasion) should be campaigning for the acceptance and safety of TW in men's spaces. They could start with a sticker campaign in men's toilets 'Transwomen welcome here'

OP are they right? you still want to be referred to as a woman despite knowing and accepting you aren't one? It's not enough to be transgender?

Have I been had?

OP I hope you don't think I'm having a go here, these are genuine questions. What is it that you think a woman is? How do you live as a woman? It's the point I really don't understand. Because being a woman isn't a costume, so I really don't get what it's all about.
Apologies if that sounds arsey, it really isn't meant to.

Also women definitely haven't always behaved