thank you from a TW

Is this it? -- If I think I have changed from being a man to being a woman, then I may think that what exists now, as me, is a woman. So if you point out that, no, I am a man, I may interpret what you say as you denying that I exist.

-- Of course this is a mistake. There is indeed a denial of existence going on: that is, there is a claim that something does not actually exist. But what? What is it that is being claimed does not exist? In fact, this is the very man-who-has-changed-to-a-woman that I think myself to be.

Yes, you deny the existence of that man-who-has-changed-to-a-woman. And of course you are right to do so: there just is no such thing as a human changing sex, so it is actually impossible for such a thing to exist.

So, yes, indeed you deny my existence in a sense in the sense that you deny I am ( sc. I exist as) something it is impossible to be. That is a very special we may say etiolated sense, however. Of course you can deny my existence in this sense are forced willy-nilly to do so by common-sense rules of rationality, indeed -- while still accepting (and, we hope, duly respecting) my existence as a person with all that entails ethically, morally and legally.

[tldr: Whether I am trans or not, I can have no justifiable complaints about you denying my existence as something I am not, and a fortiori as something I could not be. ]

I'm perfectly willing to believe that some men that don't even realise they are being sexist. It is, after all, something that many men are completely unaware of.

But relying on detrimental stereotypes to claim a man can live as a woman, and then asking women to respect that, on a feminist board of all places, is a bit much.

A fox in the hen house is still a fox, even if the fox tells you that particular fox is one of the good guys.

I think the problem is the quest for validation. It is exhausting.

Stay of if single sex spaces, dress what you like and of course let’s have great discussions about things that interests us all. I have zero problem with this.

I just don’t like to be made to validate someone else’s life choices. Or their dress sense. Or applaud a male for using the male spaces.

No woman I ever met has tried to get me to validate her as a woman. We acknowledge biological similarities and then we get on (or not). Why can’t males do the same regardless of how they present?

Now now. Didn't you read @Atarax's instructions to keep respectful?

Back in your box!

There is no new "big push". Trans women have always used women's spaces. If you weren't aware of that prior to the current moral panic, it just goes to show how little trouble they cause.

'Moral panic'? I think it started around the time blokes started tweeting shit like 'I'm a woman and if you don't think I am you can suck my dick'.

Funnily enough, women were like.....'hang on, what?!'

the fawning some of the women do on here to the men who do this is a bit wince inducing though

these men are not our friends

Oh formatting fuck it. I think we are all saying the same thing

This happens all the time. Posters like this appear and the minute they are asked the basic question

^What do you mean by "living as a woman"
^
they just disappear! Probably as it's unanswerable other than with the word "stereotypes".

and that's why, when a man who identifies as a woman blunders in and starts a thread to tell us all what an all round good egg they are, I roll my eyes so hard I nearly pass out

So what is “living as a woman”.

Goddess only knows. A feeling in a man's head?

As datun says, transgenderism is inherently sexist. it is built on, relies on, the idea that women are like this, men are like that.

No one who thinks that is an ally to women. I mean sexism isn't a capital crime or anything, and I don't wish them ill, but they're not our friends

The Jordan Petersons of the world live in the same box by the way. They fervently believe women are like. They just think only people with female bodies can / should 'be like that'

I'll join in the curious - what does "living as a woman" mean to you apart from acting like a stereotype? I'd really like to know why anyone would opt in to an oppressed group.

That is very possibly female socialisation JellySaurus But the thing is, I am still to hear about a TW who has that kind of female socialisation. For obvious reasons the biological experience will never be there. They will never go through menopause (which I am at the moment).

So what is “living as a woman”. Sexy clothes and makeup?

I'm with your dh on that, Doubletoil, whereas my dh is the one dragging himself out of bed to get the household chores done.

Nonetheless, I am still living as a woman because I am the one who has experienced what your dd has.

I'd say that your household experience is the result of the difference between female and male socialisation.

Yes, I noticed that too.

I have absolutely zero problems with gender non conforming men. Wear what you want (professional in a work space), you do you.

I am getting increasingly fed-up by all this “living as a woman”. My DD had her period start unexpectedly yesterday (she is still getting used to anticipate it) and possibly did really badly in a maths test due to horrific cramps and the stress of having blood visible on her trousers.

I have a cough and a temperature but I still need to clean up the kitchen, feed the children and clean the house. Oh and help the children with the homework later. DHs solution is to let the children grab whatever in the kitchen, let the flat be mucky and put the washing in the attic because he is feeling so poorly as well.

To me this is living as a woman. Painful biological functions and putting your children ahead of yourself. I still haven’t met a male claiming to live like a woman who does this. It all seems to be about clothes, makeup and “passing”. Never about childcare, periods, menopause and dealing with all sorts whilst dressed in what was closest to the bed. Funny that.

A male trying to express how he feels like a woman when he isn't one, has no-where to go but stereotypes which aren't dependent on biological sex. Which, to distinguish them from 'feeling like a man', will automatically be sexist.

Try it. Try and express how women feel different to men without it having anything to do with their sex and see where it leads.

It's also the reason why many women disagree with the very concept of transgenderism, over and above the extreme harm like rapists in women's prisons and the decimation of women's sport.

See redlakes comment in response to:

"Surely it's better to support people to feel ok as they are."

It rarely works. That is why we have gender identity clinics. And the discussion goes around in circles.

It rarely works.

That's because it cant easily work while sexism exists. It relies on sexism. Redlake wants people to stop trying tho. Feminists on the other hand...

Argh. Trying to talk clearly while neither lying nor submitting to the language police is muddling. Last sentence should have been:

Who, beyond telling us how to talk and how males may navigate women's spaces, has not engaged in the discussion at all.

But she had kept it respectful. I feel it's easy to take your anger about the situation with TRAs and women's rights being attacked (which I'm angry about to may I add)!, on the individual trans woman. This individual largely agrees with our stance and hasn't been aggressive or domineering.

You don't think it's domineering for a male to tell women how to talk? This person may be living in a way thinks is a woman's life, but nonetheless expresses male entitlement.

I'm not angry with the OP, more with the posters fawning over the OP. Who, beyond telling us how to talk and how navigates women's spaces, has not engaged in the discussion at all.

Everyone is still ignoring the bit where the OP said it was fine for some transwomen to use our spaces if they thought they passed well enough….

How do you deny someone's existence? Is it a ghost thing?

Rheo That's very well put.