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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

thank you from a TW

241 replies

Atarax · 04/02/2022 11:51

Firstly apologies for posting in a woman's forum. I am transgender (male who lives as female). I wanted to thank the people here who keep me grounded and secure in who I am (not a woman, just a man who is in the wrong body and is fortunate to live in a society that lets me present, act and be accepted as a woman).
Reading threads here on safe spaces gave me the courage to use a men's changing room for the first time since transitioning - I never used woman's ones just accessible/gender neutral rooms. Not surprisingly I did not get attacked, a few curious looks and I kept myself covered in a towel.

You all keep it real and that is so important for those non extreme trans people. Don't stop the dialogue (but do keep respectful). Thanks again, just wanted to post because many (most?) of us get it.

OP posts:
AntsInPenzance · 09/02/2022 08:36

I have just posted this on an audio/tech forum:

So for the male posters here, would you be ok/comfortable with transwomen using the mens' changing rooms? To create an accepting space for all males regardless of how they identify or dress?

I think if male spaces felt more welcoming and safer to transwomen then there would be less pressure for women to accept males into women's spaces (especially pre-op transwomen).

Thoughts?

Needmoresleep · 09/02/2022 08:22

There is plenty of discussion of trans issue on Quora, which is pretty male dominated. Less homogeneous than MN, so people coming at the issue from a variety of angles and cultures, and though there are some good and informed GC voices, it is not GC dominated.

Sending people to piston heads sounds quite sexist.

lucythejuicy · 09/02/2022 08:12

@EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn thank you I am starting to feel a bit better

Datun · 09/02/2022 07:56

@lucythejuicy

Should I not be able to have a discussion on pistonheads then because I have a vagina?
It's not that. It's about men (however they identify) telling women here how they would accept transwomen in their spaces.

It's preaching to the choir. And easy to say.

They need to tell it to other men. Do something.

And of course that includes women. Thing is, women are doing something. Loads of them. It would be nice to see more men do it, rather than just signal agreement here.

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 09/02/2022 07:54

[quote lucythejuicy]@OldCrone perhaps I am feeling a little sore after being accused of being a mysoginistic 80 year old and told to bugger off to pistonheads. It's not a very nice way to treat people just because they are male (or mistakenly believed to be) [/quote]
I can see why you’d feel pissed off about that.

My thought is that if blokes like Atarax and YankeeDad want to help, one very helpful thing they can do is discuss this with other men in male-dominated spaces. Which of course doesn’t mean that women can’t post on Pistonheads.

OldCrone · 09/02/2022 07:51

I think you've misunderstood the Pistonheads comments lucy. I don't think anyone was told to 'bugger off', just that the males on here should be having those conversations with other men as well.

lucythejuicy · 09/02/2022 07:37

@OldCrone perhaps I am feeling a little sore after being accused of being a mysoginistic 80 year old and told to bugger off to pistonheads. It's not a very nice way to treat people just because they are male (or mistakenly believed to be)

OldCrone · 09/02/2022 07:14

@lucythejuicy

Should I not be able to have a discussion on pistonheads then because I have a vagina?
Confused
lucythejuicy · 09/02/2022 07:02

Should I not be able to have a discussion on pistonheads then because I have a vagina?

OldCrone · 09/02/2022 06:51

Why do you think it's 'nasty' to suggest that men should also be having these discussions with other men on male dominated sites?

lucythejuicy · 09/02/2022 06:37

@EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn I believe in equality for the sexes and not putting people into boxes. That people who should be able to do what ever they want without the consent confinements of gender. Telling males to go to Pistonheads is the opposite of that. Some of you here are plain nasty

Deliriumoftheendless · 09/02/2022 06:35

Male dominated boards is absolutely where discussions around trans issues should be going.

Anyone can post on here but men need to start stepping up and saying they’re ok with transwomen or explaining why they’re not.

I’m for third spaces, but men have to do some listening, changing, accepting. And they need to be doing it on other sites as well.

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 09/02/2022 06:25

To the many women who have spent hours posting thoughtfully on this board, I apologise if it offends you that I have posted such a long message here.

As suggested upthread, it would be a very good thing if you, Atarax and the other males on the thread took this conversation to Dadsnet and male-dominated boards like Pistonheads.

AffIt · 09/02/2022 01:16

Again with 'living as a woman' - what does that mean? I'm a woman, and I wear trousers, drive tractors, I don't have kids, I can't make scones... ?

But today I took a day's annual leave today for an MRI scan to identify areas of aggressive Stage IV endometriosis.

I've had extensive surgery in the past to attempt to deal with this, but it's come back and it's looking increasingly likely that my only way out is a radical hysterectomy.

I've yet to meet a trans women who has done this.

Oh, and 'passing'? No. Every single woman you have ever met knows in milliseconds who you are. They may have been polite enough not to comment, but thousands of years of staying safe has taught us how to recognise a man instantly.

YankeeDad · 08/02/2022 23:50

@Atarax, given that I am the father of a teenager girl, I am thankful that you avoid using the women's changing rooms and have the guts to use the men's.

Especially given what I have learned from reading mumsnet about how many problems it poses when males go into female safe spaces, I would do everything in my power to make you feel comfortable in the men's changing room, were I to find you there. I might be puzzled at first, and it might show on my face, but once I figured out what was what, I would be very grateful that you had owned your difference, resisted the likely peer pressure from TRAs to go into the ladies, and done the right thing instead, which is to go in the men's or in a gender-neutral space where available.

I also do feel, having read a few of these threads, that at least in this thread, you do sound fairly reasonable about most things and willing to listen as best you can. I hope that continues and that the totally understandable anger and frustration of many women does not put you off from continuing to listen and learn.

You spoke about wanting to present, act and be accepted as a woman. I think you understand that there are limits to what is possible in that regard, especially regarding "accepted as a women", given the inherent contradiction between full acceptance "as a woman" versus the continued existence of sex-segregated spaces and roles.

I hope that you can also understand why use of "preferred pronouns" is not an easily extended courtesy , but rather a big problem for anyone, such as myself, for whom pronouns refer to sex, not gender. I can use a person's name as a compromise, but not a preferred pronoun. For me, and I think for many others, a request to use personal pronouns based on anything other than sex feels like a request, nay a demand, to espouse gender identity ideology, and that is something I simply cannot do without betraying my own values around truth and around justice.

Truth, because sex is about biology. Justice, because people with female biology have, through all of known human history, suffered countless outrageous indignities at the hands of people that are male, in virtually all human societies, because of their female biology.

The vast, vast majority of situations in which any space, role or award has been reserved for "women" or "women and girls" are situations in which that was enacted in order to try to eliminate or reduce some of those indignities against females.

As an individual who wants all females, including my female family members, to be safe from all those indignities, I become angry when any male person demands, or simply takes, access to female-reserved spaces, roles or awards by "identifying" as a woman or as a non-male. It does not help if that specific male does not pose an immediate threat to any females: by demanding a right to access "as a woman", that male is, in effect, contributing to erosion of the right for any females to preserve any sex-based spaces or roles.

So please, don't let anyone, be it extreme TRAs or women on this forum who are fed up with TRAs, dissuade you from continuing to do the right thing. Indeed, if all transwomen were to act in a more traditionally "feminine" way by being kind, thinking of how their behaviour would make others feel, etc. then no transwomen would be applying to be CEOs of rape counselling centres, or working as police officers wanting to do strip searches of females, or getting naked in changing rooms in front of teenage girls, or demanding to have their testicles waxed by female beauticians, or demanding sex with lesbians, or applying for "women in business awards", or just being generally aggressive, loud and threatening. Just writing and remembering all of these examples makes me seethe with rage! And I am not even on the receiving end of the abuse they represent.

The paradox in all of this is that the subset of transwomen who seem to be causing most of the actual problems are very much acting as traditional males!

To the many women who have spent hours posting thoughtfully on this board, I apologise if it offends you that I have posted such a long message here. I am trying to help, not by adding anything new because these are not my experiences, but by amplifying certain messages, truths and events that you have described and experienced. I cannot unsee what you have helped me to see. Your posts have also inspired me to actively support numerous initiatives (always led by women) aiming to reintroduce facts and truth into this ongoing debate, so thank you, and please know that your time is not being wasted.

lucythejuicy · 08/02/2022 22:13

@bishophaha thank you

TinselAngel · 08/02/2022 22:10

OP this board is a vipers den.
That escalated quickly.

bishophaha · 08/02/2022 22:10

[quote lucythejuicy]@SamphiretheStickerist wtf are you on about - my name is Lucy and I am not old enough to remember some obscure band in the 60s I am afraid. OP this board is a vipers den. Reverse [/quote]
Grin oh dear - you were quoting @Apollo441 - but that really wasn't clear as you made no indication of that!

You can either bold using * directly around the text you are quoting (no spaces) or use the 'quote' function if the post doesn't already contain a quote.
Stick around....

lucythejuicy · 08/02/2022 22:08

@StillWeRise and I don't need a pass from you to be on this forum thanks.

lucythejuicy · 08/02/2022 22:07

@SamphiretheStickerist wtf are you on about - my name is Lucy and I am not old enough to remember some obscure band in the 60s I am afraid. OP this board is a vipers den. Reverse

lucythejuicy · 08/02/2022 22:04

I am a woman of the female variety. I was quoting an earlier post although I haven't got the hang of the bold yet. I am also GC. That's doesn't mean I have to act like an arsehole to everyone that has a penis ...

terryleather · 08/02/2022 16:17

@Datun

As a bloke, I salute and welcome you. Gender non conformity is to be celebrated

Transwomen aren't gender non conforming tho. Despite acknowledging his sex, a male presenting 'as a woman' is cementing gender stereotypes. Stereotypes which are largely detrimental to women.

In a patriarchal society, males perpetuating disadvantage to females through the use of gender, is entirely conforming to their gender role. It doesn't get more typical.

Being impressed or offering kudos to a male who gives women the barest acknowledgement of this is also no where near gender nonconforming.

The whole concept of transgenderism relies on sexism. Men who acknowledge this, but keep doing it, are still perpetuating it and are still, as ever, putting themselves first to women's disadvantage.

Absolutely Datun

Individuals with identities love gender stereotypes, they just don't like the ones associated with their own sex.

StillWeRise · 08/02/2022 13:15

@lucythejuicy, yes, please start this discussion on pistonheads. And I'll give you a pass to come back here and report.

I think whether or not TW are GNC is not simple. I fully accept that some are conforming to 'feminine' stereotypes and therefore uphold the whole system of gender. But then there are the likes of Alex Drummond who has a full beard plus skirts and jewelry- I still think he is trolling with 'expanding the bandwidth of what it means to be a woman' when he is very clearly expanding the bandwidth of what it means to be a man. Then there's people like Miranda Yardley, who doesn't present in an exaggeratedly feminine way and doesn't claim to be a woman either.

SamphiretheStickerist · 08/02/2022 11:25

@Datun

Seriously, why aren't you both discussing this with men on Dadsnet then?

I would genuinely be impressed if a man did this. Trans or otherwise.

Yeah, me too. But, as this particular poster seems to have the same musical tastes as my utterly misogynistic father, I have my doubts that today will be the day!
SamphiretheStickerist · 08/02/2022 11:24

Oh, and for the regulars here. JuicytheLucy username is probably taken from a late 60s/early 70s British blues/rock band JuicyLucy. Their name came from the book "The Virgin Soldiers - 'an oriental tart'

Their album titles are stereotypically 'male' including Lie Back and Enjoy It; Get a Whiff a This; Here She Comes Again, song titles much the same - Built for Comfort; That Woman's Got Something; Lie Back and Enjoy It; Big Lil etc.

So, enthusiastic supportive post aside...