thank you from a TW

Jeyesfluid · 09/02/2022 20:27

You could be right DomesticatedZombie it's hard to read anything else into that comment I must say. Dont you think trans people exist Catherina? Your comment does sound a bit bigoted and mean spirited towards transwomen. Don't you think transwomen are who they say they are? 🧐

DomesticatedZombie · 09/02/2022 20:01

CatherinaJTV doesn't believe OP is a transwoman? I thought you were an enthusiastic supporter of self ID, Catherina?

WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles · 09/02/2022 19:33

Eeek I didn't mean to derail further with the waste collection thing! I don't want to give any more specific wording/exact details as it could be a bit outing to my area etc but it's definitely an issue to be raised.

As you were

PS I think the "it's bait" comment means that it's literally"bait" eg trolling for attention. Or as I would say, total bollocks

Jeyesfluid · 09/02/2022 19:12

that's bait

What do you mean Catherinajtv? I don't understand.

DomesticatedZombie · 09/02/2022 19:04

The legal manual handling guidelines suggest that the maximum safe lifting weight for a woman is 16kg, and the maximum safe lifting weight for men is 25kg.

OMG no wonder I can't lift the bloody dog into the car! Mind you, I am especially strong for a lady.

CatherinaJTV · 09/02/2022 18:48

@Atarax

Firstly apologies for posting in a woman's forum. I am transgender (male who lives as female). I wanted to thank the people here who keep me grounded and secure in who I am (not a woman, just a man who is in the wrong body and is fortunate to live in a society that lets me present, act and be accepted as a woman). Reading threads here on safe spaces gave me the courage to use a men's changing room for the first time since transitioning - I never used woman's ones just accessible/gender neutral rooms. Not surprisingly I did not get attacked, a few curious looks and I kept myself covered in a towel.

You all keep it real and that is so important for those non extreme trans people. Don't stop the dialogue (but do keep respectful). Thanks again, just wanted to post because many (most?) of us get it.

that's bait

OldCrone · 09/02/2022 18:45

@SamphiretheStickerist

I hadn't thought of it in those terms.

But is is sexism, it presumes that they will have bin men, able to lift the weight of bulky waste containers. Why not a more median weight as their mooted maximum, so one man, 1 woman can lift it; I wouldn't anticipate them expecting 2 women, god forbid!

I assume that they have a maximum weight limit of about 50kg. If a woman is part of the collection team, I would expect them to provide her with some lifting equipment so that she can safely lift that weight.

SamphiretheStickerist · 09/02/2022 18:38

I hadn't thought of it in those terms.

But is is sexism, it presumes that they will have bin men, able to lift the weight of bulky waste containers. Why not a more median weight as their mooted maximum, so one man, 1 woman can lift it; I wouldn't anticipate them expecting 2 women, god forbid!

OldCrone · 09/02/2022 18:31

Anyway and on that note, I am off to write to my local council about their bulky waste collection service who advise that rubbish "must be able to be lifted by two men".

This isn't sexism. The HSE recommend different maximum weights which men and women can safely lift. If you want them to take your bulky waste away, it's better (for you) that they use the safe weight for men to lift rather than women.

The legal manual handling guidelines suggest that the maximum safe lifting weight for a woman is 16kg, and the maximum safe lifting weight for men is 25kg.

cpdonline.co.uk/knowledge-base/health-and-safety/manual-handling-weight-limits/

DomesticatedZombie · 09/02/2022 18:29

Anyway and on that note, I am off to write to my local council about their bulky waste collection service who advise that rubbish "must be able to be lifted by two men".

Men are good for heavy lifting.

SamphiretheStickerist · 09/02/2022 16:31

It is So very, very few places that ever happens.

Two men indeed!

WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles · 09/02/2022 15:49

@SamphiretheStickerist

We have several male posters who are really valuable contributors. With often some interesting insight.

We do. And they don't seem to need to announce that fact. Or to put the 'male perspective' for us to peruse. They just add their contribution as A N Other poster. Just as most of us don't feel the need to anounce we are women! I was quite taken aback when I realised one poster was male. Posting style was just "Another MNer" wthout all the drive-by scolder attributes.

You see isn't it refreshing that we default to MNers being female, not male - it's the exact opposite of real life and why I value MN so much as a female dominated space and I want to keep it that way!

Anyway and on that note, I am off to write to my local council about their bulky waste collection service who advise that rubbish "must be able to be lifted by two men".

WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles · 09/02/2022 15:47

"Tedious drive by scoldings" Love it, you basically summed up my whole long post much better with just four words!

I know there are some very good contributors to MN who are male (and it makes me smile sometimes when people don't realise and assume they are female, it's just the opposite to RL) and indeed DH has posted on health topics specific to our DC to give support and advice to others in the same boat (as we sought support and advice years ago when they were diagnosed) So it's not that I want to ban men from MN totally apart from anyone who says speaking as a man/bloke here/hello ladies who should get an automatic deletion and ban ----

SamphiretheStickerist · 09/02/2022 15:35

We have several male posters who are really valuable contributors. With often some interesting insight.

We do. And they don't seem to need to announce that fact. Or to put the 'male perspective' for us to peruse. They just add their contribution as A N Other poster. Just as most of us don't feel the need to anounce we are women! I was quite taken aback when I realised one poster was male. Posting style was just "Another MNer" wthout all the drive-by scolder attributes.

Datun · 09/02/2022 15:27

It's not that men aren't welcome on MN at all, it's that male entitlement leading to a total inability to read the room, which makes them unwelcome on threads like this. IMO anyway.

Yes, I completely agree. We have several male posters who are really valuable contributors. With often some interesting insight.

I'm talking more about the tedious drive-by scoldings.

WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles · 09/02/2022 15:12

@lucythejuicy I also apologise for assuming you are a man as I took the quote to be your words too. If you want to go old school to bold text, you can just put a star before and after the words. The text formatting on the app is tricky sometimes.

@Datun and others I agree it's definitely an interesting discussion about where and when men should have these conversations but (ironically!) I don't want the thread to derail too far away from the original topic to discuss men after they have appeared to give us all their wisdom. Perhaps a separate thread? I'm sure there has been lots before. DH doesn't use social media much but as a SAHD he has posted on MN for parenting advice over the years (eg PFB has a temp but seems OK should I ring the GP, do bickiepegs and amber bracelets work etc) but he absolutely wouldn't come onto a FWR finger wagging at us to be respectful and giving us his manly opinion. He has read and listened to me and the DDs and understands the issues and does his bit to raise awareness in RL eg talking about potential men in tents to friends who have DDs in guides etc, he will challenge workmates who are polite to a woman's face and then talk about her tits and arse the minute she leaves the room. He will talk to DSs about misogyny in that fucking awful Drill music they listen to. Etc etc.

He wouldn't dream of coming on a thread in FWR with that speaking as a bloke bollocks, men who do that are part of the fucking problem. It's not that men aren't welcome on MN at all, it's that male entitlement leading to a total inability to read the room, which makes them unwelcome on threads like this. IMO anyway.

SamphiretheStickerist · 09/02/2022 12:40

Ah! That explains that.

@lucythejuicy my apologies for all what I wrote!

OldCrone · 09/02/2022 12:33

@Apollo441

As a bloke, I salute and welcome you. Gender non conformity is to be celebrated especially as you are doing the right thing. I view that more transgender males in male spaces as a sign of a healthy society and the death of toxic masculinity. I think that the vast majoity of men feel the same and it is a mystery why TRA's aren't pushing for male acceptance.

Samphire Lucy explained in a later post that she was quoting the post above, but didn't know how to use the quote (or bold) function, so it looked as though she was saying she was a bloke.

Apollo's post was quite a lot earlier in the thread, so a lot of us thought Lucy was saying she was male.

SamphiretheStickerist · 09/02/2022 12:05

[quote lucythejuicy]@SamphiretheStickerist wtf are you on about - my name is Lucy and I am not old enough to remember some obscure band in the 60s I am afraid. OP this board is a vipers den. Reverse [/quote]
So, when you said As a bloke, I salute and welcome you. Gender non conformity is to be celebrated you didn't mean you are a bloke?

And if you don't know Juicy Lucy then none of what I wrote applies. That cap didn't fit.

You could have just said so!

I remain confused!

Needmoresleep · 09/02/2022 10:06

Probably not allowed links to other fora, though Quora is very different to MN.

Anyway:
www.quora.com/If-I-get-an-MTF-bottom-surgery-do-I-get-a-period

Overall the debate is interesting as it is where the anime types get pushback from the more gender critical, but also get plenty of wider support you might expect on an American, and male dominated, site. The fact that there is pushback and different views is a good thing, though some of the religious opposition has me a bit [hmmm].

(I registered because DS is at a US University and though Quora stuff about his University shows up on Google, you can't read it without registering. I glance occasionally, as it is interesting to see debate evolve elsewhere, but MN is more my place.)

Datun · 09/02/2022 09:43

That along with some strikingly naive questions. The corker today was a transwoman asking if they would start periods after "bottom" surgery. Patiently answered, with lots of diagrams and real science, by a doctor.

Bloody hell. It's one thing not fully grasping the female reproductive system, but it's quite another not understanding any of it when you're actually contemplating genital surgery.

YankeeDad · 09/02/2022 09:19

@EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn Thank you for the suggestion. I shall do that. Dadsnet did not seem to really exist when I looked for it years ago, but it comes up now as having a decent webpage.

I also posted here on the assumption that maybe some transwomen would be more likely to use the men's changing rooms, etc. if they read posts by men telling them that of course they would be welcomed there. And on the further assumption that transwomen might be more likely to read Mumsnet than to read Dadsnet.

Needmoresleep · 09/02/2022 09:15

One issue that does seems to promote male debate on Quora is genital preference, with men posting that whatever their starting point in terms of the overall debate, their brain struggles to compute mixed male/female signals given out by transwomen and that they will not find a transwoman sexually attractive. And do not believe they should be compelled to.

That along with some strikingly naive questions. The corker today was a transwoman asking if they would start periods after "bottom" surgery. Patiently answered, with lots of diagrams and real science, by a doctor.

Datun · 09/02/2022 09:10

@AntsInPenzance

I have just posted this on an audio/tech forum:

So for the male posters here, would you be ok/comfortable with transwomen using the mens' changing rooms? To create an accepting space for all males regardless of how they identify or dress?

I think if male spaces felt more welcoming and safer to transwomen then there would be less pressure for women to accept males into women's spaces (especially pre-op transwomen).

Thoughts?

It's a well phrased question. I'd be interested in the answers.

bishophaha · 09/02/2022 08:56

Telling ppl to post on pistonheads is a bit of a flippant way to explain that men aren't talking about this with men.
(I'm a woman and have posted on pistonheads about cars in the past! It's quite a nice forum).

Sometimes when you're new to a forum like FWR, aww people have had the same discussions for years and if it's not immediately obvious you're posting in good faith (eg the quote fail) people might be a bit flippant rather than taking the time to explain something which to them has been discussed hundreds of times before.

Not anyone's fault, and we've had the debate over and again about how "nice and welcoming " we need to be to people joining in for the first time.
I'm happy to welcome anyone as long as they're prepared to engage in good faith.