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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

1 February: On #WorldHijabDay, we are #FreeFromHijab

28 replies

NonnyMouse1337 · 31/01/2022 12:21

The Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain are staging an online protest against the underlying sexism of the hijab, burkha, niqab, and other forms of religious covering of women, and the compulsion to wear it by Islamist regimes.

mobile.twitter.com/CEMB_forum

If you'd like to participate, you can use the hashtags
#WorldHijabDay
#FreeFromHijab
#NoHijabDay

Quotes in the images:

‘Accusations of Islamophobia is a smokescreen that serves to legitimise Islamist terror and violence and blame the victims.It says criticism of Islam and Islamism are forbidden, blasphemy laws are required and that, therefore, threats and actual murder of critics is perfectly legitimate.’ – Maryam Namazie, 2016

‘Modesty culture, of which the veil is central, sexualises girls from a young age, puts the onus on them to protect themselves. It removes male accountability for violence. It’s an extension of rape culture.’ – Maryam Namazie, 2018

‘The idealised woman in islam is obedient, properly veiled, submissive, and accepting of her assigned “place” in society. The rest of us are whores, compared to unwrapped sweets – covered in flies and free for the taking.’ – Maryam Namazie, 2014

1 February: On #WorldHijabDay, we are #FreeFromHijab
1 February: On #WorldHijabDay, we are #FreeFromHijab
1 February: On #WorldHijabDay, we are #FreeFromHijab
OP posts:
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NonnyMouse1337 · 02/02/2022 08:19

please at least be consistent in your critique

Thanks for your comment and input.

I personally don't see any inconsistency in my views nor do I see any inconsistency in the sort of issues discussed on these boards by a wide range of women.

Ex-Muslims are an extremely marginalised minority and I will continue to focus and support them as long as blasphemy and apostasy laws around the world, and various cultural and religious beliefs, contribute to their death and mistreatment. Many Ex-Muslims are at a high risk of being killed - not just in Iran or Saudi Arabia, but also in places like the UK. Ex-Muslim women are especially vulnerable due to their sex - sexual harassment, threats of rape or actual rape on top of general intimidation for leaving Islam, being kidnapped and taken from US/UK to places like Bangladesh/Pakistan especially if they are younger as family members think they would benefit from being away from the 'corrupting' influences of the West if the women say they no longer believe in Islam. Ex-Muslim women are also at high risk of losing access to their children as again, she is viewed as a corrupting influence/apostate and if her husband is Muslim, fathers ultimately have custody of children under Islamic law, not mothers.
Several Ex-Muslim women have not seen their children for years. It is heartbreaking hearing their stories.

And yet so-called liberals, lefties and progressives in the West continue to turn a blind eye to what is happening to Ex-Muslims, not just around the world but also within their own countries. For years, Ex-Muslims would be no-platformed at universities and liberal establishments and could only get a little airtime on right-wing media. (sound familiar?) It's only fairly recently that this is starting to slowly change, with Humanists UK taking up the issue via their Faith to Faithless programme.

I would urge people to please watch Women Leaving Islam -

I consider all of the world's major religions to be patriarchal, sexist and misogynistic, and I happily criticise all of them. I will not make an exception for Islam. It is very much a political and Islamist strategy to label any and all criticism of Islam as 'Islamophobic'. People are able to criticise and mock Christianity without risking death, and until people are able to do the same for Islam, I will support any campaign for their right to do so.

I start or raise threads specifically about Ex-Muslims or Islamism maybe 4 or 5 times in a year. Apart from myself and a few other posters, no one else is particularly vocal of their support of Ex-Muslims. If a handful of these posts are enough to frighten some women off from posting here, then that's on them. We've had plenty of threads and posts being very critical of Christianity and this understandably annoys or upsets many of the Christians that post here, and some might share their views saying so but it doesn't stop them from engaging with various discussions. I'd suggest a similar approach to those who might feel that criticism of Islam and Islamic and/or cultural practices is something that can annoy or upset them personally.

There is no inconsistency in the fact that I oppose countries like France forcing women to remove their hijab. Others might take a different view, but there's nothing to stop a poster from creating a thread about this issue and criticising such authoritarian policies.

I am perfectly able to

  • oppose the hijab and other forms of modesty clothing for the underlying sexist and misogynistic principle that women's bodies are a source of sin and shame, and that the only way to stop men and their 'uncontrollable' urges and actions is for women to bear the responsibility for what they wear and how they look.
  • oppose the hijab and other forms of modesty clothing for ever more younger and younger girls in schools - again this is a form of sexualisation of young girls and teaches them their bodies are a source of shame and sin. Read the open letter linked above.
  • understand that cultural, social and political factors and pressures can influence women's decisions to wear (or not wear) the hijab and other forms of Islamic clothing. It's not entirely a free choice - if it was, there wouldn't be an issue in many families if a woman suddenly decided she no longer wanted to wear a hijab. Lots of threads here criticise Western fashions and beauty practices such as shaving, waxing, makeup etc. Robust arguments for and against it by many women.
  • In my opinion, I don't consider wearing the hijab to be 'empowering' at all in the same way I don't consider women wearing skimpy clothing to be 'empowering'. I think it's something young Muslim women tell themselves and others to fit in with the liberal feminism of 'everything is my choice, everything is empowering' that is prevalent in social circles in the West.
  • I will continue to support women's right to wear modest clothing for whatever reason - personal, religious or cultural. Just like many women here are able to criticise make-up or skimpy outfits but will stand by any woman who is harassed or treated unfairly for doing so.
  • I will continue to oppose government laws and policies that infringe on women's liberties and individual freedoms - hence one of the reasons why I oppose gender ideology imposing on religious women by insisting they should share their spaces and bodies with males.

None of these positions are inconsistent if one genuinely supports liberty in its actual sense and also cares about women and the underlying dynamics that affect them.

Plenty of Ex-Muslims continue to support Muslims, especially since many of their families and friends are Muslim. They understand all too well that there is genuine prejudice and discrimination against Muslims from some sections of Western society, but they are also able to oppose and criticise religious ideology and practices. They want so-called progressives to stop being cowardly in pandering to Islamist ideology and that it is possible to support Muslims while opposing Islamism.

Please watch Sarah Haider's video.

OP posts:
StrangeLookingParasite · 02/02/2022 07:34

I do not think France is right to ban the hijab and tell women they cannot wear it.

I really, really wish people would stop propagating this lie. France has not banned the hijab. I see hijabi all the time.

dipdye · 02/02/2022 02:13

But why do you wear the hijab?

TwentinQuarantino · 02/02/2022 01:47

Everything @ComeAgainNow said.

I live and grew up in a very multicultural area and know many lovely ladies who wear the hijab - doctors, teachers, fitness instructors, stay at home mums etc... They'd laugh at the idea of anyone feeling sorry for them for wearing a hijab!

EeeICouldRipATissue · 02/02/2022 01:29

@ComeAgainNow

I consider myself a GC-leaning feminist. I also wear the hijab. The reason why I don't frequent this board is precisely because of posts like these, which erase my agency and condescend to my ability to discern what I want to wear and what I don't.

Iran is always brought up as an example in these conversations. The issues with Iran's theocratic regime is far deeper than the imposition of hijab - mandatory hijab-wearing is a symptom of these issues. I do not support the imposition of any form of dress, and I think that the issue here is not the hijab but state policing of bodily autonomy and religious practice. France is currently proposing a ban on wearing hijab in competitive sports. Girls are forced currently to remove their hijab at school gates, which many have described as humiliating and traumatic. Where is the energy for defending the bodily autonomy of these women and their choices?

Nobody should be forced to wear what they don't want to. But to presume all Muslim women who wear the hijab are either forced or brainwashed is a huge and very offensive leap. Western feminism tells me I'm complicit in my own oppression. There is a real lack of intersectionality here which shuts out a whole group of women. My opinion and lived experience is just as valid as the women you've posted from. I will defend anyone's right to wear what they please. But that same defence is very rarely extended to me as a hijab-wearing woman.

I started typing out a response to the OP then saw yours and deleted as said it so much better than me! Also because I'm on the fence, I hate that women have to hide away their features and that needs addressing, but on the other hand, if someone wants to? That should be their choice. It's complicated and not as easy as just '' free them! ''
MargaritaPie · 02/02/2022 01:20

What if a woman wants to wear one?

There are over 1 billion Muslims in the world and it's the world's fastest growing religion, so I don't see what place non-Muslims have to judge Muslims?

(I'm presuming posters on this thread are non-Muslim, I apologise if I've got this wrong.)

KimikosNightmare · 02/02/2022 01:19

My Muslim friends who observe their faith with hijab say they have pride in their dress and modesty

Why have pride in their modesty? It seems a bit of a contradiction if you use the first dictionary definition of modesty.

unassuming in the estimation of one's abilities or achievements

"he was a very modest man, refusing to take any credit for the enterprise"

The first definition seems an admirable trait.

The third defintion is

dressing or behaving so as to avoid impropriety or indecency, especially to avoid attracting sexual attention (typically used of a woman)

"the modest women wear long-sleeved dresses and all but cover their faces"

ComeAgainNow · 02/02/2022 00:49

Oh, and one more point - if you posit that there may be social pressure to wear hijab, you would be correct in certain cases. (Not in mine, but I don't discount those lived experiences.) But I see that same social pressure arise in so many aspects of women's clothing and presentation. Why do women shave their legs? Why do women wear high heels or wear makeup? These are social practices which are very much geared towards women. These practices are largely underpinned by misogynist frameworks, so please at least be consistent in your critique.

More broadly speaking, none of our choices operate in a vacuum, particularly about how we present ourselves to the world. Conditioning and social pressure, whether overt or subconscious, will inevitably influence our decisions. The decision to wear the hijab is no different. It's hypocritical to apply a stringent lens to wearing a hijab where women like me must justify the rationale and ins and outs to satisfy everyone that I have not in fact been coerced, that I am sound of mind and not an instrument of my husband's/father's tyranny.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 02/02/2022 00:44

Thank you for the thread.

I read some of the twitter posts as the day went on. My Muslim friends who observe their faith with hijab say they have pride in their dress and modesty.

I do not think France is right to ban the hijab and tell women they cannot wear it.

I think Iran's poor attitude to women extend beyond hair coverings, and I think women should have the choice whether to observe or not.

I think it is unfeminist to critcise @ComeAgainNow's choices.

I find it deeply uncomfortable that women are taught, by all sorts of sources, to hide their body because men cannot control themselves.

I do not believe men cannot control themselves.

I think I have a lot to learn about hijab. So, thank you for the thread and links.

ComeAgainNow · 02/02/2022 00:14

Also, the comparison between wearing a hijab, and FGM and breast-ironing is illogical. A hijab is simply a piece of cloth. It's a part of clothing which can be removed in a flick. FGM and breast -ironing are body-altering procedures with lifelong medical consequences.

ComeAgainNow · 02/02/2022 00:08

I consider myself a GC-leaning feminist. I also wear the hijab. The reason why I don't frequent this board is precisely because of posts like these, which erase my agency and condescend to my ability to discern what I want to wear and what I don't.

Iran is always brought up as an example in these conversations. The issues with Iran's theocratic regime is far deeper than the imposition of hijab - mandatory hijab-wearing is a symptom of these issues. I do not support the imposition of any form of dress, and I think that the issue here is not the hijab but state policing of bodily autonomy and religious practice. France is currently proposing a ban on wearing hijab in competitive sports. Girls are forced currently to remove their hijab at school gates, which many have described as humiliating and traumatic. Where is the energy for defending the bodily autonomy of these women and their choices?

Nobody should be forced to wear what they don't want to. But to presume all Muslim women who wear the hijab are either forced or brainwashed is a huge and very offensive leap. Western feminism tells me I'm complicit in my own oppression. There is a real lack of intersectionality here which shuts out a whole group of women. My opinion and lived experience is just as valid as the women you've posted from. I will defend anyone's right to wear what they please. But that same defence is very rarely extended to me as a hijab-wearing woman.

NonnyMouse1337 · 01/02/2022 23:59

effectively what we are saying when we don’t challenge this is that girls from a Muslim background aren’t entitled to the same freedoms and protection from discrimination on the basis of their sex as other girls in the UK.

Thanks for articulating this so well. That is a powerful letter. Such a shame it continues to be ignored.

OP posts:
RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 01/02/2022 23:38

When people insinuate that it’s Islamophobic to voice any criticism of hijab, they seem to forget that they are further marginalising those women from a Muslim background who raise concerns about it, whether those women are in Iran or the UK or anywhere else.

It’s over four years since this open letter was written but I don’t think there’s been any progress on the issue whatsoever.

www.sedaa.org/2017/09/open-letter-hijab-in-the-classroom/

Taking issue with hijab for pre-pubertal girls is seen as Islamophobia (and remember how Posie was accused of just this and repeatedly vilified, as if it was the girls’ Muslim-ness she was reacting to rather than their oppression), but effectively what we are saying when we don’t challenge this is that girls from a Muslim background aren’t entitled to the same freedoms and protection from discrimination on the basis of their sex as other girls in the UK.

I think they deserve better than that.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 01/02/2022 23:23

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

The Council of Ex-Muslims are heroic. Fundamentalist religions are harmful to women and I have the greatest respect for those who dare to resist.
Hear, hear.
NonnyMouse1337 · 01/02/2022 23:22

I have to agree that I find having issues with the hijab in particular a bit much.

There are quite a few ex-Muslims (and Muslims!) who would disagree with you. Like a number of issues, context and the social pressures that surround women can make the difference. You might find Sarah Haider's video on the Twitter link I posted interesting. Smile

OP posts:
ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 01/02/2022 23:20

isn't hair covering
Oh for an edit option

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 01/02/2022 23:19

I think for me the issue is hair covering its the judgement / social pressures that go with it. Sikh men cover their hair for religious reasons after all.
The difference is that is that for some Muslim women wearing the hijab is not a voluntary expression of religious belief but a socially imposed code. If a woman choses to wear religious clothing because that is what she independently wants to do - good luck to her. If a woman feels obliged to dress in religious clothing because of family and social pressure - that is unacceptable.

SantaClawsServiette · 01/02/2022 23:11

I have to agree that I find having issues with the hijab in particular a bit much. Every society including in the UK has certain customs of clothing that are considered appropriate, while wearing less is considered inappropriate. In some cases is even illegal.

While there are clothing demands that seem to be in some way exploitative - the niqab I think might fit, or the uniforms at a Hooters restaurant, I don't think the hijab meets that level. It's a very wearable kind of clothing.

If people don't think laws in a particular country are justified, that seems more like a problem with that country's laws. Some people think it's wrong when some western countries make it illegal to go topless, or for women to go topless. But I don't think that means we should speak out against shirts in principle as if they are a morally questionable form of clothing.

ArabellaScott · 01/02/2022 23:05

There are sects within all Abrajamic religions that require women to cover their hair.

NonnyMouse1337 · 01/02/2022 22:51

@SwissBall

So the burka or niqab would be ok if they looked pretty? Hmm
Especially considering the whole point of these garments is to ensure women's bodies are not a source of arousal to men.
OP posts:
NonnyMouse1337 · 01/02/2022 22:49

I ♥️ Sarah Haider.

Is the hijab a symbol of empowerment? Or oppression?
mobile.twitter.com/SarahTheHaider/status/1488596374698528768

OP posts:
SwissBall · 01/02/2022 22:44

So the burka or niqab would be ok if they looked pretty? Hmm

EishetChayil · 01/02/2022 22:42

@Cherrybomb197

Up to every woman what she wears. I think the hijab is actually very pretty. How about everyone just minding their own business
It's really not up to them though. That's the problem. Not everything can be conveniently viewed through a western libfem lens.
thinkingaboutLangCleg · 01/02/2022 22:18

The Council of Ex-Muslims are heroic. Fundamentalist religions are harmful to women and I have the greatest respect for those who dare to resist.

tkwal · 01/02/2022 21:31

I have no problem with a hijab, it is practical and can be flattering on any girl or woman. It's also more hygienic than long hair swishing around. I do intensely dislike those coverings which completely hide the face. Maybe because I am claustrophobic . I do have an issue with zealots who make such things compulsory and the horrific punishments they inflict on those who don't comply