Mumsnet Webchat about women/mums in politics with Stella Creasy and Caroline Nokes - 1st February

"Evolution", apparently Red

I wonder if Stella reads the crazy shit coming from TRAs and if it gives her pause?

Or its a deliberate and cynical exercise to alienate a certain kind of woman from political engagement. Or its an utterly feckless attempt by a couple of women who don't know what the fuck they are doing.

I think you're onto something here. I think it's an attempt to alienate the women who would/could make a difference (for women and society) because men/patriarchy doesn't want there to be any change.

The men in politics are happy to support women in politics as long as no demands are made to change things to disadvantage men or accommodate women who are not compliant, and so long as the women who are in politics (like Creasy & Nokes) ensure that they only focus on women's issues which are frippery nonsense which doesn't actually help us. Hence, they'll pile in with agreeing we're all so mean and should be ignored.

'This will continue on Mumsnet until the first woman not born female conceives and gives birth naturally. That time is a long way off, but it's coming. At that point their whole nonsense belief system will be blown wide apart.'

Hmm I'm not knowledgeable enough to speculate about the future of human evolution but no man will ever naturally conceive or naturally give birth.

Must be a transphobe, what does birth sex have to do with anything if TM really AM and always have been.

Thats what I'm struggling with.

Either its women who are already politicised. And MN would see a good bet for that, but you would have to be aware of the political views here cos its relevant to the webchats purpose.

Or its to go for a softer, women who might be a little bit interested and not really that politicised. In which case, whats so great about politics? Why is it a good area to go into? Etc etc.

Or its a deliberate and cynical exercise to alienate a certain kind of woman from political engagement. Or its an utterly feckless attempt by a couple of women who don't know what the fuck they are doing.

I believe in Hanlon's Razor, about incompetence before malice but I don't know if thats any better.

Still comes down to” well Stella.when your wriggly baby is 10 or 12 or 15, would you be happy to see adult males of any type being in a space where she is changing , in hospital on women’s ward, ( I am talking about patients not doctors) going on a school residential or guides camp where there is mixed sex accommodation? Would you rather that she was safer in an all female environment ?” I cannot believe that you would really see no problem

That has to be a parody, surely?!

twitter.com/lucy_amethyst/status/1488531049789468681

'This will continue on Mumsnet until the first woman not born female conceives and gives birth naturally. That time is a long way off, but it's coming. At that point their whole nonsense belief system will be blown wide apart.'

I'd like to ask 'what is a woman?'

It also comes across as deeply unprofessional. I've been a bit aghast at the continuing Twitter digs - she's an elected representative, making comments about the electorate.

I was interested to discover that currently, there are no particular limits as to what a serving MP can say on social media which led to Nadine Dorries quite astonishingly telling a journalist she would “nail your balls to the floor” with “your own front teeth” on social media in 2013.

That is a brilliant article. Thanks for hte share.

“I don’t notice a person’s sex” is the political equivalent of “not noticing” the washing up (while still knowing it exists and relying on someone, somewhere, to do something about it). The current feminist hand-wringing over Mumsnet is just another example of how those yet unmarred by “burdens of obligation” treat the women who are.

YES! (from Glosswitch article)

If I recall correctly, the last time she was on here was when Posie Parker got banned

Yes, KJ referenced it in her video about the webchat.

"I wonder if CN or her aides have gone to the trouble of retrospectively coming here and reading threads like this, resulting in her wisely shutting up and keeping her head down."

It's because she's a Conservative and has been told to keep quiet and let Stella Creasy contribute to the "Labour are lost to women" narrative.

Yes, Red. To come on ostensibly to discuss with women what barriers they face, and then ignore the one question that participants are most concerned about, and then tell women they shouldn't be discussing this particular barrier but should 'be kind' and then continue to reprimand them on Twitter and complain about tone without ever properly engaging. It's slippery and disingenuous - at least that's how it comes across.

Two possibilities:

Either MPs attended this hoping to demonstrate that they care about women in politics, while failing to grasp/research/understand the real issues/barriers facing most women who are less privileged, or

MPs attended knowing that women would want to discuss the erasure of the category of 'woman', and attended purely to say 'look how mean and single minded all these silly feminists are'.

Neither inspire me with any confidence in the system itself or these two particular MPs, I'm afraid.

The main difference that I can see is that Nokes is an outlier within her party, and Creasy is very much speaking from the party rulebook.

[quote Alekto]This whole debacle has at least caused Glosswitch to write another Mumsnet article thecritic.co.uk/much-ado-about-mothers/[/quote]
Ooh. Excellent article . Thanks for posting.

red
Has made me teary reading that. Nail on head.

All of that red

For me, i went on the chat in good faith and didn't want to ask the gender / sex question.

I actively avoided it because it had already been asked many times.

Ive felt actively forced out of political party engagement. I have tried to engage previously.

The barriers ive felt about not being allowed to debate and then actually had it said that i should not be as opinionated on the basis of my sex are not unique and not exclusive to me.

To then be told to be kind rather than get to the point and the heart of a problem - which may actually be difficult for some at times but quite frankly needs to be done otherwise you get festering issues is precisely the bullshit barrier that women are facing getting into politics.

When the two people who come on mn campaigning about getting women into politics, dont acknowledge this and THEN go on to demonstrate that they are indeed PART of the problem that making women disengage is a staggering level of a lack of self awareness.

You cannot just come swanning in with a slogan and hope women will wave and cheer. Women want policies that are for them. They want environments and systems that work for them. They want cultures which don't constantly tell them to shut up and 'stop being difficult' in whatever euphemism its phrased. You would never go into a room to debate politics with men and tell them to be kind if the debate wasn't going your way and expect to be taken seriously. So why is ok to do it to women? The whole Mummy thing is dire. Women want to be more than their biology and lazy stereotypes. And if the mum bit wasn't bad enough, throw in the patronising 'wiggly' baby. Not just a baby. Like wtf.

We want to talk about stuff like what paths are there into politics for women who don't have degrees. Who perhaps dont have the ability to turn up to meetings in evenings at childrens bedtime. Who dont have the support of family. Women who have tried the local root and found it dominated by attitudes that belong in the 1970s but local politics has yet to shed. Women who have lots to offer.

Talk more about these issues and the actual campaign you want to do Stella. Less wiggly baby more actual substance.

Empathise with women by speaking about common problems with the need for a prop.

Acknowledge that your own parties have glaring issues with sexism and structure and the way they operate at local level, which you need to change. Embarass your bloody parties by being honest about it! Make a stink!

The fact you don't, just highlights my point. That you wont speak out because that rocks the boat and that damages your own career.

And the fact that women don't feel that there are really people fighting their corner in a tangible way, at a time when the mood is right with metoo, really shows the institutional level sexism and why it's so utterly depressing. Why would woman want to do that. Who is inspiring them?

We all know its going on. We know you know.

Hiding behind the wiggly baby looking for an easy life, isn't going to win support.

I wonder if they volunteered to do the chat or were invited?

Yeah, Stella is a MN old hand, which makes her reappearance admirable in my view, but the fuck up she made of it inexcusable

This isn't even Stella Creasy's first appearance is it? If I recall correctly, the last time she was on here was when Posie Parker got banned. So I'm going to assume she knew exactly what to expect which makes her wide eyed surprise all the more distasteful and makes me even feel even less inclined to trust anything she says. (Sorry if this has already been discussed, I've not followed the whole thread.)