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Mumsnet Webchat about women/mums in politics with Stella Creasy and Caroline Nokes - 1st February

609 replies

Bosky · 31/01/2022 11:56

Anyone got any questions for Stella and Caroline? Smile

Go to:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_live_events/4468388-Webchat-about-women-mums-in-politics-with-Stella-Creasy-and-Caroline-Nokes-1st-February

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9
littlbrowndog · 02/02/2022 12:25

Great post red

The 2 women politicians should read this post by you

FOJN · 02/02/2022 12:23

Excellent tweet from Birdy Rose on the Helen Joyce thread linked above.

twitter.com/TheFamousArtBR/status/1488798405136728068?s=20&t=ngttIdoGurHpfhQybK3ElQ

RedToothBrush · 02/02/2022 12:21

Those who are tackling the issue are addressing it at the wrong level.

ABSO-FUCKING-LUETLY.

Creasy is all 'in parliament', 'if you stand for westminister' and comments about local level a complete after thought.

The problem is that you either have women who set out for careers into politics or women who are taught at local level, that politics isn't for women.

Yesterday I spent a lot of time looking at the educational levels of women in politics. What is noticable is the trend that women have increasingly done degrees, and even more notably have studied politics in increasing numbers in recent years.

This seems to be particularly true of Labour, with the Conservatives being slightly more likely to field female candidates who have worked up through the local politics route than Labour.

As a rule, and part of the overall disillussionment of the public with politicians, has been the rise of career politicians with 'rising stars' parachuted into prime safe seats. So we've ended up with a frustration in shit politicians more concerned about their Westminister career basically neglecting issues in their constituencies for decades. That was one of the reasons that left the Red Wall prime for the taking. I'd argue that MPs who have lived and worked for the area for years prior to standing for election, are much better at understanding the problems of their area from the ground up.

If you want to have women interested and engaged in politics, you encourage every single grass roots political organisation, you do as much as you can to FORCE backward constituency parties who are largely run by pensioner to change. The Labour Party could insist on party meetings and inner workings being better for women at all levels. Same goes for the LDs and the Conservatives. The fact they don't just highlights that really the establishment are that interested in women being in politics. The likes of Stella's campagn is just a PR exercise which she is 'allowed' to do. We are not seeing the males in any party driving for these proposals because they damn well know that could have an impact on their own careers and women might start being uppity and having basic expectations rather than a 'be grateful' attitude.

I can not stress enough how this comes across on MN when it comes to women's health, and how often you get posters being told they should 'be grateful' rather than encouraging a massive ground swell of anger about second rate health care, poor maternity provision, lack of consideration of the importance of dignity and safeguarding, ignoring of institutionalised sexism in health and poor attitudes to consent. The mentality is far too often a 'well thats just the way it is and its never going to change'. It will never change, precisely be women don't force the issue and demand better.

I have stayed on MN for many years merely to keep saying it DOES matter because I know damn well that politicians at all levels DON'T CARE and I don't know how else you get that message out that YES IT MATTERS. The status quo is comfortable and easy. And thats were the rot has set in. There is no grass roots political movement properly connected to Westminster anymore. Except the Nimby Movement which is the LDs secret weapon at local elections.

I do think that MN in that sense - not just because of the GC movement on it - is seen as something of a threat because its a rare place where debate still thrives in more than 256 characters. Its seen as radical, precisely because its simply not passive. Remember this is a period of time where Westminster has spent a significant amount of time legislating against protest rights, Labour has been terrified by the factionalism in its own ranks 'scaring off the middle classes' and the LDs have actively said that in order to be liberal and democractic it is essential to throw women with the wrong views out of the party.

Nothing says we support women voicing different opinions than the treatment of Natalie Bird (I know someone who saw it all unfold in real time at the time and was appalled.) I've had a LD lord actively privately admit to me that the party has a problem with bullying. You only have to look at the structure of the LDs and how few individuals hold executive positions across multiple LD groups to realise there is an issue with cliques.

If you have a 'face thats doesn't fit' then you give up before you even begin.

DH was a friend of a local councillor. One of the (many) reasons we fell out was because I found out he had told DH that I was 'overly opinionated' and that DH should get me to wind my neck in. He'd previously whinged that I'd been unwilling to stand for local elections. The cognitive dissonce is something thats shared by so many politicians at all levels.

Creasy and Nokes say that women shouldn't be gender critical and haven't had the guts to say 'I don't agree with GC women but it is essential to women in politics and democracy in general to ensure they are welcomed into politics, not demonised and actively participate in politics in a productive way within the system'.

Every time women are push out of the system by whatever bullying and marginalisation techniques (both of accident and by design), it only reinforces the message that 'politics isn't for me'.

You can't go on a webchat for encouraging women into politics and then say 'be nice, that subject is off limits and we've had enough of that now' precisely because that gives the opposite effect to the one you are trying to achieve, because it looks like a top down control which fails to listen and engage and allow women to say what they want on their own terms.

Its all about recruiting 'the right views' rather than the right people. We talk about diversity, but we only use the permitted parametres and measures of that as defined from above rather than actually being representative of the people.

The overall prism through which politics is viewed on in the UK is Them and Us in terms of politicians. If you are outside politics then its you v politicans. If you sign up to a party you are required to sign up to the leadership's already decided agenda with no descent, no room for personal nuiance. Instead of being self critical and trying to improve from within, you should say 'well look how bad the other party is'.

It is all just one giantic race to the bottom where women are reduced to holding the baby going 'Look I've got a wiggly baby like you' in an effort to try and get more women into politics rather than standing back, and saying 'what issues are disproportionately affecting women in society across the board. what are female social injustices. tell me about this, suggest ideas and examine the problems in a cross party fashion. what barriers have you faced.' etc etc.

You know talking to women like grown ups with an intellect and maybe have something worthwhile to add to the conversation.

'Be Kind' is so utterly stiffling, especially when that's the exact problem many of have faced if we are remotely interested in political issues and trying to get heard. 'Don't make a fuss'. 'Be grateful'.

So many of these issues about women going into politics are internal party matters. If you can't win the conversation within your own parties - in places where you hold a majority on a local council - then fuck me, whats the fucking point. Have a nice little campaign and stick 'Mum' in the title and sit flat on your arse going 'wiggly baby'.

Otherwise actually get involved in the grass roots properly. Rather than constantly telling women who are how they are doing it all wrong.

OvaHere · 02/02/2022 12:12

@ArabellaScott

twitter.com/HJoyceGender/status/1488777456261730308

'The IDEA that it's people who recognise the reality, immutability and salience of binary sex for human being's lives who have been "radicalised" is Trumpian levels of absurd'

'That it is hard to find such denialists among women who have recently ejected an entire new living person from their bodies is anything but surprising! '

This reply to Helen is a doozy. Imagine being part of this online exchange Shock

twitter.com/Gimpuslegend/status/1488779178992447488

I still find myself drawn in sometimes, even though I know I shouldn't.

I got into a truly mad exchange yesterday, with someone who sought to refute the immutability of sex by reference to... CADAVERIC HEAD TRANSPLANTATION.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/02/2022 12:12

Yes, it fell pretty flat I think. Especially as she was so invested in denying biological sex needed to be respected.

littlbrowndog · 02/02/2022 12:11

I thought it was patronising to come to a webchat and not be prepared with childcare. I can’t do my job with the toddlers by me. It’s not possible

It was like we weren’t taken seriously

How can you give your full attention to what your doing

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/02/2022 12:02

I find it a bizarre stance to want to dictate the conversation on webchats when you're an elected MP. I understand why a lot of people come onto mn to flog a book or something want to talk about that but surely your role as an MP is to listen to your constituents and ensure their voices are heard. Isn't that literally what they're paid to do?

This.

RoyalCorgi · 02/02/2022 11:52

The visitor invariably wishes to tell women what is useful to them to put into the public sphere, sees it as a 'sharing soundbites' and downloading experience rather than a receptive one, and often is making use of the optics of here am I talking to the mummies, aren't I accessible and diverse?

Laurie Penny made this same mistake when she visited MN - not for a webchat, she just turned up and started a thread one day. She would have been very young at the time. But she had decided that the only reason the silly mummies were getting all het up about the trans issue was because we felt disaffected at the lack of mum-friendly policies from government and we were venting our disappointment by misguidedly targeting trans people.

It was a really remarkable misreading of the situation - but it does demonstrate how people who should know better assume that mothers have no brains.

ArabellaScott · 02/02/2022 11:45

twitter.com/HJoyceGender/status/1488777456261730308

'The IDEA that it's people who recognise the reality, immutability and salience of binary sex for human being's lives who have been "radicalised" is Trumpian levels of absurd'

'That it is hard to find such denialists among women who have recently ejected an entire new living person from their bodies is anything but surprising! '

Thelnebriati · 02/02/2022 11:37

News Thump seem to be sitting on the fence on this one...

newsthump.com/2022/02/01/woman-who-visited-mumsnet-looking-for-advice-on-baby-food-now-a-trans-exclusionary-radical-feminist/

ArabellaScott · 02/02/2022 11:37

is talking about women and women's rights inherently anti-trans nowadays?

Either 'rights aren't pie' and there is no conflict between women asking for and receiving protections as set out in the Equality Act (single sex spaces, asking for female HCPs, single sex prisons, etc) - or there is a conflict of rights between women wanting spaces & rights for women and some people wanting males to have the right to be added into the category of 'women'.

Women ask for single sex (female spaces). Protected in EA.
Males ask for access to female spaces (rendering them mixed sex).

At some point the govt are going to have to decide if women are allowed to have rights & single sex spaces, or if everything is to become unisex/mixed sex. At least the latter would be more honest, and possibly safer.

Clymene · 02/02/2022 11:35

@Artichokeleaves

In all honesty, I have met very few MPs (or counsellors) that have a 'receive' mode as well as a 'broadcast' mode.
And yes, I think you're right. I don't know any politicians now but I did meet some aspiring ones at university and they were much more concerned about themselves than the students they professed to represent.
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 02/02/2022 11:34

Thank you, Arabella.

Clymene · 02/02/2022 11:33

@Twinkietinkly

Lurker here, been reading for ages but only just signed up. I've just read the webchat today and I'm really puzzled. I don't understand how we're meant to record the number of women in politics (or anywhere) correctly if we can't use the biological, dictionary definition of woman as adult human female, thereby excluding males from the numbers. It makes all statistics meaningless, doesn't it, if males are included in stats for females. What's the use of collecting fudged data?
Well this was the whole root of FairPlay for Women's successful challenge of the census. If you can't determine who is male and who is female, how can you use the data for anything? It's utterly meaningless.
ArabellaScott · 02/02/2022 11:32

@Artichokeleaves

In all honesty, I have met very few MPs (or counsellors) that have a 'receive' mode as well as a 'broadcast' mode.
Oh, that's a very interesting observation. Yes. How depressing.
ArabellaScott · 02/02/2022 11:31

Yes, precisely the issue, Twinkie. Or one of the issues.

Twinkietinkly · 02/02/2022 11:29

Lurker here, been reading for ages but only just signed up. I've just read the webchat today and I'm really puzzled. I don't understand how we're meant to record the number of women in politics (or anywhere) correctly if we can't use the biological, dictionary definition of woman as adult human female, thereby excluding males from the numbers. It makes all statistics meaningless, doesn't it, if males are included in stats for females. What's the use of collecting fudged data?

Waitwhat23 · 02/02/2022 11:27

@DottyDoge

I thought Stella Creasy and Caroline Nokes came across well. I also thought it didn’t reflect well on MN. I suppose MN could have done a better job of moderating it to help the GC side
I thought they came across quite poorly. There is a massive issue with women in politics being targeted for abuse, whether it's to do with their views, their looks, their family set up etc etc and part of the reason why women spend less time in office than men. The impression I got from the continual refrain of 'being kind' and 'raising the level of debate' was that you'll be OK as long as you hold the right sort of views. Nothing to say in practical terms how such abuse would be addressed and tackled - there's lots of handwringing about how 'it's such a shame that Rosie Duffield feels under siege' but no condemnation from her party about the kind of abuse she's been receiving. Nicola Sturgeon, to this day, still hasn't publically addressed the credible rape threats that Joanna Cherry, a member of her own party, received from another member of the party. Not one word. Because she holds the 'wrong sort' of views.

Someone on this thread I think made a really good point about how it's hard for women even to speak to their own elected representatives, let alone go into politics themselves, due to councillor's surgeries being held only face to face, at 7pm most often, and any request for online meetings (to make it easier for women in particular) is simply rejected because 'councillors prefer it face to face'. There's very little point talking about crèche services for serving MP's etc if women can't get involved or their voices heard at grassroots level. Those who are tackling the issue are addressing it at the wrong level.

And the whole question of 'what is a woman' is important because if a 50/50 representation can be 50% men and 50% transwomen, the barriers which we are pointing out don't exist - maternity leave issues, breastfeeding, taking on the lions share of child rearing. What's the point? You might as well just do a generic 'encouraging 'people' into politics' and drop the whole aspect of encouraging women into politics entirely.

Artichokeleaves · 02/02/2022 11:25

In all honesty, I have met very few MPs (or counsellors) that have a 'receive' mode as well as a 'broadcast' mode.

Clymene · 02/02/2022 11:24

I find it a bizarre stance to want to dictate the conversation on webchats when you're an elected MP. I understand why a lot of people come onto mn to flog a book or something want to talk about that but surely your role as an MP is to listen to your constituents and ensure their voices are heard. Isn't that literally what they're paid to do? Confused

WarriorN · 02/02/2022 11:21

I can't teach kids with a baby on my lap.

My friends working various ICUs can't.

Midwives can't have their own baby in the room while they deliver others.

Prison officers can't.

She's saying that "look I can be an mp with a baby" (using said baby as a token) "so can you!"

How is this any different to hoodwinking MLM mums to think they can be a full
Time mum and run a business at the same time?

She should be campaigning for MUCH better support for new mothers in parliament. They don't get much maternity leave. That's why so few women with kids or hoping to have kids go into parliament. Unless their husbands take the sahp role. But that can mean different parenting choices.

That's why AWS were created. Making them "inclusive" defeats the purpose.

I know a consultant paediatrician who breastfed her kids way past 1 but her husband took the career break.

Artichokeleaves · 02/02/2022 11:20

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

Still trending. Being kept off the number one spot by Boris.

Mimmybirthingfury still ranting about how awful we are.

Is'nt it funny that the questions raised were about women and women's rights, but twitter and the reporting is about "anti-trans"?

I'm not aware of "anti-trans" on here. Am I missing the terrible hate, or is talking about women and women's rights inherently anti-trans nowadays?

The obvious conclusion is that the trans political movement is anti-women and anti-women's rights.

I think it's been fairly obvious for a long time, but helpful that this is now being explained openly in the public sphere by well known figures such as Mimmy.

It's fairly simple: women can have rights, or men can have a lot of additional privileges and freedoms.

It's rather like 'be kind' in fact means 'woman, subordinate yourself to male people with needs'.

I'm not sure why I'm expected to produce a ladylike answer to either of these, being neither insane nor a masochist. Confused

EastWellowBride · 02/02/2022 11:17

My mum lives in Nokes' constituency. When I told her what's going on she initially didn't believe it. She now understands (betterthan CN does) and is informing her many voting friends.

Artichokeleaves · 02/02/2022 11:17

@RoyalCorgi

Both of them seemed to significantly misjudge their audience. Creasy kept banging on about having to hold her baby, I think assuming that we were all mothers of small children and would therefore sympathise. Now, as it happens, I have tried to work while simultaneously caring for a baby - not very successfully, because it's bloody impossible - but the baby stage is now a distant memory for me. I don't know the personal situation of every woman taking part in yesterday's chat, but I suspect that most of us have older children, and some have no children at all. Also, as a PP pointed out, a lot of us have professional jobs. So we view a web discussion like yesterday's not as a time to say "Gosh, it's so difficult being a mum! If only we had more opportunity to take part in public life" and more an opportunity to raise really serious issues about a systematic attack on women's rights. Some of us spend a lot of our time reading, discussing, researching and campaigning on this issue. We therefore hoped yesterday would give us the opportunity to have an intelligent debate about it. But Nokes and Creasy were simply unprepared - and apparently angry because we wouldn't play ball.
This is a clash of expectations that happens now every time a political figure comes to MN.

The women of MN want to speak to them and be heard as intelligent women with actual inner lives and interests and careers, and to express their concerns that they would like that figure to address.

The visitor invariably wishes to tell women what is useful to them to put into the public sphere, sees it as a 'sharing soundbites' and downloading experience rather than a receptive one, and often is making use of the optics of here am I talking to the mummies, aren't I accessible and diverse?

As a result, both groups end up extremely fed up with each other.

ArabellaScott · 02/02/2022 11:13

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

Still trending.

I forget who, but some smarty pants said "women have all the rights they need - the right to remain silent"

#14

4w.pub/the-rules-of-misogyny/