Reading recommendations: Ray Blanchard's Reasesrch

I have admitted no such thing.

You said:
Autogynephilia, as a description of a kink, exists, in that there are people born physically male who are turned on by the thought of being female.

Isn't this an admission that autogynephilia exists?

Because 20/30/40 years ago it was very difficult to live as a trans women and so many trans people stayed in the closet. Thankfully now things are more tolerant and the age at which trans women tend to transition is younger.

That's not answering my question. Why do heterosexual adult males transition?

You admit that autogynephilia exists and that this is the explanation for at least some of the heterosexual males who transition. So you agree with Blanchard that the explanation for the transition of at least some heterosexual males is autogynephilia.

I have admitted no such thing. I agree with Julie Serano that autogynephilia, where it is present, is likely a symptom of a discordant gender identity rather than the cause.

What other explanations are there in your opinion for older heterosexual males who transition?

Because 20/30/40 years ago it was very difficult to live as a trans women and so many trans people stayed in the closet. Thankfully now things are more tolerant and the age at which trans women tend to transition is younger.

I don't know what your problem is barley. You admit that autogynephilia exists and that this is the explanation for at least some of the heterosexual males who transition. So you agree with Blanchard that the explanation for the transition of at least some heterosexual males is autogynephilia.

What other explanations are there in your opinion for older heterosexual males who transition?

he claims all trans women are either autogynephiles or extreme homosexuals

I know that. Are you disputing that autogynephila exists or not?

I'm not sure why there is a desperation to deny the existence of AGP. I think acknowledging it would definitely help many people, as too many are sent down a road of transition that is clearly not for them.

I've seen a family torn apart by this, where their young adult heterosexual son decided to become a woman (even though he showed no feminine traits previously, he was a quiet geeky boy). The person in question even doubted the treatment, but felt they were too far down the path to go back. In the end he had all the surgery, but the family remains totally divided, it didn't make them any happier either. I wonder if diagnosis of AGP may have prevented this?

Autogynephilia theory as proposed by Blanchard as a comprehensive explanation for gender dysphoria/transsexuality however is false

He doesn't say it's a comprehensive explanation for gender dysphoria/transsexuality, but that it does describe some people who identify as transgender/transsexual.

Just as an example of how influential the theory has been in the field.

Are you saying it doesn't exist? This is from one of your links:

I conclude that although autogynephilia exists, the theory is flawed.

Blanchard's Autogynephilia Theory: A Critique - Charles Moser

And there aren't 800/900 scholarly articles, there are a few dozen all written by the same cluster of people

Did you click on my google scholar link? There were over 800 results. But if you look at any specialist area of research you'll find lots of papers by a limited number of people who are specialists in that area, so I don't know why you find that surprising in this case.

Reams of stuff about how these men fetishise women's oppression.

Yes and that has nothing to do with Blanchard's theory of autogynephila as I'm sure you understand if you have read the literature. Blanchard claims trans women have a target location error, it has nothing to do with fetishising women's oppression.

And there aren't 800/900 scholarly articles, there are a few dozen all written by the same cluster of people and passing references to their theories in other papers, usually critical of it.

Do some trans women experience arousal at the thought of themselves as women - yes, it is not uncommon and hardly surprising - you would expect someone who feels their body is wrong and they should be the other sex to have a sexuality which reflects that.

It's arousal at the thought of themselves as a woman, often coined gender euphoria. And often as a woman in a sexually subservient context. Reams of stuff about how these men fetishise women's oppression.

It is not 'having the sexuality' of a woman. Which is impossible unless you are a woman.

Still, it's good to know there are at least 800 or 900 scholarly articles which, hopefully, the OP can access.

There hasn't been a huge amount of work done on it because in the scienific communities there's only about half a dozen proponents of the theory and it is not particularly paid much heed to.

My google scholar search for articles mentioning 'autogynephilia' and 'Blanchard' returned 831 results:
scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=autogynephilia+blanchard&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_vis=1&as_ylo=&as_yhi=

There's quite a lot there to read through for something that hasn't had a huge amount of work done on it.

[quote Femisaurus]@barleybadminton do you have any examples of the later peer reviewed research that I can look up?[/quote]
Julie Serano's work is probably the best and really put an end to the theory in the related diciplines - and it certainly deserves better than the glib dismissal upthread. One of her published papers is here: www.juliaserano.com/av/Serano-CaseAgainstAutogynephilia.pdf

There hasn't been a huge amount of work done on it because in the scienific communities there's only about half a dozen proponents of the theory and it is not particularly paid much heed to. However Moser's work is here: www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00918369.2010.486241

Whereas this is his research on autogynephilia in those born biologically female female: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19591032/

Later work has shown that Blacnhard's strict correlation upon which the theory depends have not been reproduced and that transgender sexuality is way more complex then he assumes:

"In contrast to Blanchard's theory, however, those transsexuals classified as autogynephilic scored higher on average on Sexual Attraction to Males than those classified as non-autogynephilic, and no transsexuals classified as autogynephilic reported asexuality."

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18299976/

The theory of AGP basically says that transitioning is for some people, but for others (heterosexual men) it is not a solution. But for TRAs it is all or nothing.

This is categorically untrue. Blanchard's theory absolutely supports transition, up to and including genital surgery. He claims that autogynephilia is an inherent sexual orientation which cannot be changed and for which transition is the most humane and clinically effective solution. What he can't explain is why autogynephilia often disappears or significantly reduces post transition (even social transition) which is at odds with the claim it is either an orientation or a paraphilia. This is what led to Anne Lawrence's wild speculation about trans people 'pair bonding' with themselves post transition and like an old married couple no longer possessing sexual desire.

@Femisaurus

I haven't read what Joyce says but I think it's important to note that the way autogynephilia is presented by many gender critical sources is often wildly at odds with Blanchard's theory and has largely been made up off the cuff with no punlished evidence behind it and with a view to maximising the stigma trans women face. So you'll often hear GC people claim someone like Monroe Bergdorf, who is exclusively attracted to men, is an autogynephile which is literally impossible under Blanchard's theory. Autogynephila means attarction to oneself as a woman, Blanchard claim trans women have a target location error and so instead of fancying other women they fancy themselves imagined as women basically - if they are not attracted to women they can't be autogynephiles, but extreme homosexuals with a naturally feminine essence - because the theory links homosexuality in men to femininity (I don't think Blanchard ever went to Trade lol).

Oh dear lord. You don't need peer reviewed research to look at AGP men from one end of the Internet to the other Barley!

The second mistake often made is people linking sexually motivated cross dressing and other gender related fetishes - which are quite common in men who identify a men and have no desire to change that (and more than a few women) - with autogynephilia as a comprehensive theory of transsexuality. Do some men get off on imagining themselves as women orcross dressing - absolutely. Do some trans women experience arousal at the thought of themselves as women - yes, it is not uncommon and hardly surprising - you would expect someone who feels their body is wrong and they should be the other sex to have a sexuality which reflects that. Does this explain the phenomena of transsexuality in humans - well no, not at all because many trans people don't experience autogynephilia and of those that do it often goes away or diminishes once they transition.

Oh dear lord. You don't need peer reviewed research to look at AGP men from one end of the Internet to the other Barley!

Quite. That genie is not going back in the bottle. As more and more men decide they are women, AGP is also more and more blatantly flaunted. I expect the attempts at denying it will soon die out.

When too many men claim they have it, what are you going to say? Claim they were all brainwashed by nasty feminist witches?

Unfortunately I don’t think this will be an improvement. The first voices have started calling for normalising AGP, to try to fool us all that it is harmless. It is not. It is an extreme objectification of womanhood, and thereby women.

Furthermore, AGP men, by definition, get off on pretending to be women, e.g by using women’s spaces and demanding others call them she/her/Female name, thus enrolling others, especially women and girls, in their fetish without our consent.

Normalising living out AGP on a daily basis normalises the idea of men’s sexual desires taking priority over women’s consent, privacy and dignity, which is anything but harmless.

I honestly think this is the one to be alert to, and keep pushing back against whenever it rears its ugly head.

There was a really interesting suggestion on one of the trans widows threads, that AGP is like an addiction. I don't think that idea stands a chance of being investigated in the current climate.

I find it ironic that many trans activists just say that AGP is a complete nonsensical theory (and ignore what's out there, particularly with examples of the most famous transwomen) yet push their own theories as fact (like the genderbread person) that are easily debunked.

I find it worrying that these activists seem intent on pushing AGP men down the transition route. I know that the gender identity clinics used to filter them out and that's why we hear of people memorising a script to circumvent this process. The Conversion Therapy bill will also take this safeguarding measure away.

AGP would also explain why some men who transition aren't that fussed about pass-ability as it's really the emperor's new clothes. No man wants to admit that it was his sexual desires that led him down that path.

The theory of AGP basically says that transitioning is for some people, but for others (heterosexual men) it is not a solution. But for TRAs it is all or nothing.

Oh dear lord. You don't need peer reviewed research to look at AGP men from one end of the Internet to the other Barley!

Neither did I claim that Blanchard's terminology constituted a diagnosis SevenWaystoLeave.

I'm merely pointing out the reasons why certain people want to minimise or deny AGP.