Woman on ward - complains about male patient. Is discharged.

But to join in with the the “gender critical” movement which directs hate and aggression towards trans women and trans people

No it doesn't. Unless you've changed the meaning of 'hate' and 'overkill'. Which is always quite possible.

And there's no within about it.
There's women.
And then there's some males, who call themselves women.
We're not a group. Transwomen are not a subset of women We are not the same.

but there’s never been any doubt or confusion over my sex. Amazing, isn’t it?
Well lucky you for passing the looking enough like a woman test.
Pity this woman wasn't as lucky to be as womanly looking as you.

@abitofadvice1234 and I'm posting from Scotland. A country where -

• elected officials voted against traumatised rape survivors being able to request a female examiner. Not insist or demand but simply request. This was apparently unacceptable.
• where convicted sex offenders who self id as transgender are routinely placed in the female prison estate. Unlike the rest of the UK, a GRC isn't even seen as a consideration. A representative of a Scottish Trans organisation has openly admitted to this being an experiment in order to push the same kind of 'inclusion' in other public spaces. An experiment. On vulnerable women.
• where women have been investigated by the Police for ribboning, stickering, chalking and having the 'wrong' opinion. Where credible rape threats are made against female politicians and are essentially condoned by our First Minister.
• and in terms of 'semantics', a recent radio campaign in Scotland to encourage the woeful take up the cervical screening programme didn't use the word woman once. It used the term 'those with a cervix'. But fuck those women who don't know what a cervix is (50% in recent surveys), or women who have basic knowledge of English, or various other groups who know the word woman but not the word cervix, right?

I would consider these immensely feminist concerns. These issues hurt women.

Yes I am Indigenous to North America. The word does apply in the European context but that’s a whole other thing. I am also what would be considered by most here a “trans woman.”

Separately, @PurgatoryOfPotholes , yes there’s an issue there and it’s annoying. But to join in with the the “gender critical” movement which directs hate and aggression towards trans women and trans people generally is overkill for what is infighting within a movement.

I’ve ended up in paeds as an adult when unconscious/unable to communicate* but there’s never been any doubt or confusion over my sex. Amazing, isn’t it?

As someone (specifically, a survivor of multiple sexual assaults) who actually was given an internal exam without her consent while unconscious; I really do find the constant harping on imaginary “genital examinations” in poor taste, to put it mildly. Honestly it’s like when small boys are fascinated with their penises: there simply are not enough ways to express that the rest of the world absolutely does not wish to view the contents of your underwear; & constantly turning the discussion to it is both selfish & boring.

This thread is another record of trans activists disrupting basic feminism:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4170253-Anti-FGM-campaigner-Hibo-Wardere-comes-under-attack?pg=1

abitofadvice1234 I take it you mean you are indigenous to northern America? 'Indigenous' makes little sense in the european context where the majority of people are indigenous.

abitofadvice1234

Once upon a time, I didn't care about this very much. I assumed that so long as I carried on treating trans people as people (as I did friends who were T), and advocated against them being discriminated at work and so on, everything would be okay.

But then, again, and again, and again I saw discussions of simple feminist issues deliberately derailed with "but what about transwomen?" And I was told feminism was bullshit unless it centred transwomen. So I've had enough thanks.

Ttans activists have repeatedly demanded feminist attention when we were discussing things that had nothing to do with them. Now they're getting the attention they demanded and this is supposed to be us being anti-feminist? Nah.

Observe this sticker. It says "THREE WOMEN KILLED BY MEN EACH WEEK". Someone has tried to obscure this information with trans flag stickers. That's trans activism in a nutshell.

I appreciate reading your thoughts. Is it possible for you to share a bit more about your friend's experience in a safely anonymised way? I understand if not, of course. That sounds unusual, but I can see why it would make this issue feel urgent to you.

I can't remember the exact name of the condition but it was kind of a form of dementia caused by a uti. She could speak, well mumble, but she couldn't articulate who she was including her name. She was in critical care for a few hours then transferred onto a general ward.

But also thinking about it my gran was the same, she had a stroke and was unable to speak but they didn't keep her in critical care, in fact after a few days on the ward they discharged her (with a support package) and she still couldn't speak.

Would trans and enby patients feel othered if offered side rooms? I always like to be in a side room as my wife stays with me in hospital, and we appreciate the privacy and quiet.

I think most people would rather have a side room, so I doubt many trans people would object and in fact I've heard of it happening. I think the only danger there (and it's similar to suggestions trans women could be fast tracked through the refuge system into self contained accommodation) is that people might resent what was perceived as special or privileged treatment - which may cause hostility towards trans women from people who didn't mind sharing a ward with them but are pissed off that they get their own room when they're stuck on a noisy ward.

@abitofadvice1234. - the gender critical movement?? You mean the understanding of basic reality of biological sex that has existed throughout human history! You mean that new fandangled concept?

Do you think transmen are safe on a male ward. Yes or no.

@Waitwhat23

To your question, I see the whole gender critical movement as a distraction that hurts “natal” women (since I can’t use the other word)

I’ll admit i’m posting from America. I’m Indigenous. I dont care all that much about the institutional language changes. I think the whole “people with [insert anatomical thing]” language is a bit ridiculous sometimes but just boils down to semantics.

What i’m focused on is MMIW, and the exploitation of all indigenous people, especially women though, assigned that at birth or otherwise. I worry about surprise govt. hysterectomies (only stopped in the 70s). Not small semantic changes in institutional language.

@Innocenta just wondering why your sympathy to women who want single sex wards is limited and yet you are so concerned about how transwomwm and men who identify as non binary may feel othered. (And yes I’ve said transwomem and men as it really doesn’t seem that trans men or women who ifentify as non binary really are ever a consideration in this)

But even if you believe trans women represent the same threat as men (which I don't but this thread isn't the place for that discussion), there is a clear risk differential between a trans women on a ward full of men and a single trans women on a ward full of women. The vast majority of women who go into hospital will never encounter a trans woman, a trans woman in these circumstances would be surrounded by men all the time - and some people have to spend a lot of time in hospital.

I mean realistically, assuming you are a woman, would you rather be on a ward full of women including one transitioned trans woman, or the only woman on a ward full of men? I think it's pretty clear which is the safer option.

@barleybadminton Thank you for your reply!

I appreciate reading your thoughts. Is it possible for you to share a bit more about your friend's experience in a safely anonymised way? I understand if not, of course. That sounds unusual, but I can see why it would make this issue feel urgent to you.

From my perspective - I agree with you that it's unlikely we will see strictly XX wards return. I realise that's very much not what GC posters want, and I (to some extent) have sympathy with the underlying concerns. I definitely think there ought to be substantially more effort on both sides to actually have a civil conversation and not to slide into painful accusations. I know that's controversial to say on here, of course.

But I also acknowledge that self id is problematic. I don't think there is an easy answer, not at all, but it can't be right to punish patients who are distressed (even if mistaken).

I myself would not have any problem with sharing a ward with a trans woman. But I know a lot of women don't feel the same, and I think single sex bays (at least) should be there for people who need them.

Would trans and enby patients feel othered if offered side rooms? I always like to be in a side room as my wife stays with me in hospital, and we appreciate the privacy and quiet.

We're rapidly approaching a society where the minority voice is the only one that can be heard.

And basically everyone else has to tolerate it, or be called a bigot.

Oh dear, if you hadn't noticed, we are not allowed to talk about things like 'pink taxes' when talking about feminism because it doesn't include transwomen and if your feminism doesn't include transwomen then 'it's not feminism'.

Can't talk about domestic violence either. Still confused about that one. I thought they thought transwomen were women, and so included in stas about women?

There is some major reaching going on in this thread! In circumstances where someone was going to be placed in a single sex ward, there will have been ample opportunity for the hospital staff to ascertain the patient's sex.

I think there may be some confusion between the routine measures and checks used by trained medical staff to treat an unconscious, unresponsive patient, and what a layperson would do with a paralytic flatmate after a night out.

@EeeICouldRipATissue

, But absolutely a concern for women and children's safeguards* Not concerned about all women's safety though, are you? What about the woman in hospital who was harassed when she had every right to be there? Who some people are saying it's OK to inspect her bits to check she's a woman? What about women who don't '' look'' woman enough? #WeSeeYouToo

'If I keep repeating these over and over hopefully people won't notice how shit my argument actually is'.

Exactly, because how can it be feminism when it's only some women that people give a shit about?

I care about women being raped in prisons by convicted sex offenders who self id as transgender. Those who espouse gender ideology don't seem to give a shiny shit about those vulnerable women.